The original Tiger...

Tipu Sultan was a Butcher pls dont glorify the devil...He massacred more than 1000 Iyengar men, women & kids on the eve of Deepavali their descendent's observe the day as a Dark Day n still never celebrate Diwali... It was Tipu Sultan and his fanatic Muslim army who converted thousands of Hindus to Islam all along the invasion route and occupied areas in North Kerala, Coorg, Mangalore, and other parts of Karnataka. Besides over 8,000 Hindu temples were desecrated and/or destroyed by his Muslim army. Even today, one can see large concentrations of Muslims and ruins of hundreds of destroyed temples in North Kerala as standing evidence of the Islamic brutalities committed by Tipu Sultan ... this is just the tip of the iceberg of what he has done... Its a shame how Indians recognize him as a legend n hide the real facts n then make Tv series like sword of Tipu sultan...our gr8 historian defend people like him n show him a national hero...its very disheartening...

he was the original butcher...

Anurag Singh : I understand your anger against Tipu when you see him from the Hindu viewpoint. As a Hindu myself, I cannot disagree with you. But as Indian students of Indian history, we are constantly faced with this dilemma. Because we have the religious viewpoint, we have the geographical/race viewpoint and we have the foreign invader viewpoint. One conflicts with the other all the time. We have to look at history dispassionately or else not see it at all. Because, for the crimes committed 300 years back, we will be angry at the present generation for no fault of theirs. Let me reiterate that this forum is to discuss and share historical knowledge and not to breed hatred. I also urge you not to repeatedly post the same message over and over again and dilute the strength of your own comment. Hence I have retained this one comment of yours and have deleted the rest.

Certainly agree with RBSI's views. Anurag u should agree that we should always try that we express ourselves in modest way n no one's feelings get hurted due to our viewpoints. After all history is history n we cant change it now. Thats d only fact.

Well said Madhav.....history is history, we cant change it now. But let me add, we can learn from its mistakes now.

And how much of this History we speak about is authentic? Remember, that much of what we know about India prior to the advent of the British is from court records, hearsay, or oral traditions. There is every chance of dilution. Let's not sit in judgment over what happened hundreds of years ago. It will only vitiate the atmosphere. I don't think this forum is meant for spewing venom against any community. RBSI is a beacon of knowledge, let it remain that way.

Dear RBSI, couldn't agree w/you more regarding your observations on Indian students of Indian history. Btw, Shri Anand Balaji seems to think that history/ writing history, before the advent of the British is constantly endangered by dilution. With due respect for his scholarship, I imagine this so called dilution has constantly existed in all traditions of historiography, all over the world! Authenticity in historical records whether oral, written or in whatever form is not an absolute but a constantly shifting category, frustrating to the merely factual!

@Sudha - Thank you for your observations. Of course, it is common knowledge that it's the same with History all over the world. Who's denying it? But the matter at hand does not require us to delve into world History, but merely our own. Because nowhere are oral and other traditions so rich and varied as in India. PS:I'm sure the Red Indian or the Aboriginal of Australia will have their own versions of events.

Anand and Sudha : I am glad you agree with the ideal RBSI strives for. History is ofcourse written (oral tradition included) by the victors everywhere....and hence by default it is inaccurate and lacks authenticity. But it should not be dismissed for that reason alone, since it is also an available source of information of a bygone period. History we should understand is actually an interaction between humans (do we ever have histories of trees or animals?)... and hence there is more than one side to the story. The version depends on the perspective of the narrator. Tipu is a classic example : from the viewpoint of Wodeyars - he was a renegade usurper / from the viewpoint of certain Hindu victims - he might be close to Anurag Singh's angry opinion / from the viewpoint of a Mysore Muslim - he was a patriotic defender of faith / from the viewpoint of a patriotic Mysore soldier - he was a genious military strategist fending of the Mughals, Mahrattas etc. / from the viewpoint of Mangal Pandey, Subash Chandra Bose or the Indian of today - he was India's greatest patriot protecting the motherland against the British occupation. This can goes on and on.... So its our endeavour to present books of all versions and read each of them dispassionately... and slowly evolve our own individual theories.... by reading and interactions with others ( I actually respect Anurag's opinion as much as I repect the others ). In fact this is learning and unlearning on a continuous basis.

Thanks for the insights RBSI:-)

dear RBSI, learning and unlearning on a continuous basis....that's wonderful!

Thank you, Subbiah, for your excellent commentary. It reflects a mature, dispassionate and scholarly approach to history. You are right that we should learn from it. Unforunately, the only lesson we learn from history is that we never learned anything from history.

Asad : History is an emotional issue for all of us....I mean look around the entire humanity. The victims and their progeny carry the burden of hatred all the time. I guess thats how we are programmed. I myself have got emotional and have got into many a spat earlier. But we have to slowly get over it....especially Indians, since our history and country is so very complex...and unless we can see the past with dispassion, we would end up hating everybody for some reason of the other !!

Fantastic Subbiah...indeed history is an emotional issue for most of us...we can retrospect but let it be done with one singularly clinical objective...which is to learn...and that btw encompasses the begininng and the end for every history buff...to know more...seek answers...conduct unbiased analysis and view the past as the past...be it good or be it bad..horrific or whatever. However having said that..there will be some among us as Subbiah just said and I quote this wonderful man. "..we are constantly faced with this dilemma. Because we have the religious viewpoint, we have the geographical/race viewpoint and we have the foreign invader viewpoint... . One conflicts with the other all the time. We have to look at history dispassionately or else not see it at all. Because, for the crimes committed 300 years back, we will be angry at the present generation for no fault of theirs." RBSI is a fantastic forum for those who enjoy delving and knowg more about the past..lets all keep it that way...if we feel the need to discuss an issue lets do it keeping the ethos of RBSI in mind...in a free, matured and civil manner.

Subbiah...I cannot help but acknowlegde what a great platform RBSI has become...I'm sure many of us know that there is alot of very painstaking effort going into the new posting we constantly see on the RBSiI pages every single day...RBSI has been like a bowl of honey that has been resposnsible for attracting so many people from all walks and disciplines and of course religious backgrounds...to savour the flavours of the past. Asad..Sudha..Anurag..Yvonne...Valmay...Nick...just to name a very few as the the list is long...I must hand it to you...I congratulate you man... PS You wud recall that not too long ago I too used to sound a bit like Anurag...in fact it was the same individual Tipu who once inspired extreme virulent comments. MY friend I have learnt something from RBSI...I think I would call it being evolved !!

As I said earlier Frank...you are an extremely gracious man. It has been such a rewarding journey for me too. What started off as a compilation of my very modest collection of rare books soon got transformed into a page for listing my interests...which further led me to seek a new interest everyday !! Thats the story of RBSI. I honestly feel priveleged that so many extraordinary people including serious academics visit and discuss on this page. Maybe interest in history by itself is a great leveller. Some want to be heard and some want to hear. Lets keep this going folks....Such great company you all are !!

Subbaih: I hope you will have a chance to visit the National Archives in Delhi. They have the most precious documents of Indian history available for visitors. I thank you and your many friends for making this an interesting, vibrant, and cultured group. As a result, we are already planning a cultural (music, Qawwali) function to celebrate the life and times of Prince Dara Shikoh at Humayun's tomb on his next birthday. We will see what comes out of it. Somehow we celebrate only the lives of our religious leaders but pay little attention to the few glorious kings and leaders we had. 34 minutes ago ·

Asad : Such a brilliant idea ! Please keep us updated.

Wow!!!!! great Count me too.... about a minute ago

The way I envision it is that we will have the function in the open courtyard of Humayun's tomb where Dara Shikoh alone was buried as an 'outcaste' by religious bigots. We will invite everyone who believes in the tolerant, compassionate, and secular outlook of that noble Prince. We will have good quality classical music, qawwalis, entertainment, and lots of fun to celebrate his life and dreams. I have Dara's date of birth in the Islamic calendar; can someone please help me convert it to the Christian calendar? I will appreciate your comments on this proposal. Thank you.

Wiki...Dara Shikoh (Persian: دارا شكوه ) (March 20, 1615 – August 30, 1659) was the eldest son and the heir apparent of the Mughal Emperor Shah Jahan and his wife Mumtaz Mahal.

Gregorian coverter says : if this is correct date of Dara Shikhos birth......You entered: Friday 20 Safar 1024 A.H The conversion result is: 20 / 3 / 1615 *There is a small probability of one day error.

Tazeen : Thats the spirit... Asad : Amazing organizer you are !!

Thanks Subbiah I hope my details from the net tally with Asad Ahmad's dates becuase he has everything with perfection......

Thank you Subbiah and Tazeen Zehra for your help. The date of Dara's birth given by Syed Muhammad Latif in his excellent work "Agra" published in1896, is 29 Safar 1024. It comes to 29 March 1615. So we can take it as the last weekend of March. It is saddening that, apparently, the headless body of Dara is buried in Delhi since he had been decapitated and the head sent to his loving father Shah Jahan in Agra - an ultimate indignity inflicted by the shameless usurper. There should be an upper limit to human cruelty.