What an interesting book, Subbiah Yadalam! No one can miss the foreigners in our midst while looking at paintings and sculptures especially at Ajanta.

Interesting to see Indians were aware of the Firangis with hats and shirts in 1010 CE and put the dirty ones on a Shiva temple...!!! But would like to ask Kipling who was he talking about when he said: "While they who live up a tree, And feast on grubs and clay,". Were there really some Indians who lived on trees and ate grub & clay? Or was it his imagination?

More here ( https://youtu.be/lvGEyCXvV7A )

Freemasonry - " A friend of the family" - Limerick license (http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/rg_friendof1.htm )

Another interpretation - "Kipling's poem exemplifies the kind of tolerance for and, indeed, joy in difference that many global nomads develop. At first, and with family indoctrination, "all the people like us are we and everyone else is they." Throughout the international sojourn, differences between the two cultures become abundantly clear. So too does it become clear that host nationals interpret the expatriate's behavior as every bit as "disgusting" as the expatriate interprets theirs: "isn't it scandalous!" Eventually, however, can come intercultural understanding and an ability to look "on we as only a sort of they." - ( http://www.transition-dynamics.com/weandthey.html )

Some more interpretations. You can add your own too. ( http://www.eliteskills.com/c/1063 )

Yeah. Where did the man in the hat come from -- I wondered about that.

For people wondering about the European figure in the Brihadeeshwara temple in Thanjavur, don't forget about the Roman sea trade with the Cholas and Pandyas and Sri Lanka. After the losses experienced by Rome in the Roman-Persian wars, the trade persisted perhaps up to the 8th century CE. There could have been a few merchant-travelers even after that period, and it is not inconceivable that a valued/important merchant visited during the time of Raja Rajendra Chola. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Roman_trade_relations

I am absolutely sure our ancestors were aware of the civilizations in the west and that trade was happening is also common knowledge......what I was wondering about was that they had no qualms about putting him on the temple wall.

Ratnesh Mathur ji, thanks for all the links...will at some point look them up. But, I wanted to know if Kipling was using that description to ridicule his (we) community or did such tree living, grub eating Indians really exist? I have also wondered many time did mostly herbivorous Indians ever eat monkey brains, as they show in Indiana Jones.....or is that also another sarcastic They vs We thing?

Could have been an ambassador or somebody important to the Raja. Temple walls were used to engrave local history. All around Brihadeeshwara, I recollect seeing old Tamil epigraphy encoding the temple history. There is also a statue of the Raja and his wife, in addition to the architect of the temple. This figure appears high on a gopuram (I recollect that I did not have a tele-lens camera, and could not get the detail of this picture).

Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks.

This sculpture was added later to the Vimana during Nayak period, it has been established for a long time. do not speculate!

Could also be a supporting architect of the temple. There is an unusual gargoyle too at this temple. Very gothic church funny, add-on sort of motif, not uncommon in European churches of the time - human face & a lizard body, high up on a temple beam.

Deivarayan Meenakshi Sundaram this is new to me! I have heard of 500 year old Nayaka murals in Brihadeeshwara - which are well-known, but NOT about their additions to the structures, including the purported European figure. Do you have any references that back this up? Thanks

The gargoyle type lizard on the Vimana added on, later ? Yes, that does appear so. But , the European hat figure ??

The european looking figure in the Big Temple of Thanjavur is almost certainly a later embellishment, perhaps during the Thanjavur Nayakkar rule. The local legend is that it represents Danish merchants with whom the Thanjavur ruler Raghunatha Nayakkar had good relationship. It is a myth to believe that it was a prophecy about the European rule or that it represented a Roman or Yavana trader of the Chola era.

Have a question....how can you add a stone carved lizard later to an already carved finished stone beam?

Ratnesh Mathur, I am skeptical that an architect from Europe helped construct the periya kovil. In this period 9th-11th century, Europe had no math (beyond Roman numerals), no science, no enlightenment - they were in the grip of an obscurantist church and in the throes of their disease-ridden dark ages. There has been ZERO intellectual capital from Europe to India in that time period. In my talks I discuss that the transfer of knowledge was in the opposite direction - India to Europe. I am more inclined to think this might have been an ambassador or rich merchant. Even Deivarayan Meenakshi Sundaram's suggestion that this was a construction of the Vijayanagara Nayakas (who had trade with the Portuguese) is intriguing, if he can show some evidence for this. Regarding the figurines of animals - they surely cannot be equated to Gargoyles. I recollect in my trips to several temples in Thanjavur and Kumbhakonam that whimsical sculptures were often found for the amusement of the visitors. There are frogs, elephants, with seemingly different forms when viewed from different angles, and so on. I would think that the lizard also is engraved similarly. Note that the oldest European monument of any repute was the Hagia Sofia cathedral (rebuilt many times; present structure in 15th century). The engineering disaster of Leaning Tower of Pisa was of the 13th century. All other monuments including lofty cathedrals and churches were constructed only AFTER (15th century) Europe's exposure to Indian science and math via Latin translations of Arabic texts, which in turn were translations of Sanskrit texts. See part-3 of my 3-part talk on "Indian Civilization" here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hleXm0bFrtk

Of course, you may be right. The European figure may not be a supporting architect. Interesting talk, there. Information is an exchange. It flows in both directions. Converting information to knowledge, is an individualistic process. Am no expert on architecture but having lived & traveled in central Europe for many years, I can point to several interesting stone rotundas & forts in Europe, from the pre-renaissance years. Then there is the Justinian period architecture. Also, in your talk, you may want to consider Crete & early Greek civilization, quite distinct from Hittite. The contact between Europe & India for trade has at least 2300+ years of continuity. Between Persia & Europe is similar & even more intense. ( At least 600+ Mithras ( Rg Vedic deity) temples in Europe before 7th CE, thanks to Persia's Mani ). Studies of several ancient Indian towns have revealed such links in objects like coins, beads, seals etc. For eg. One of the largest towns of ancient India, Ahichhatra ( near Bareilly in the Doab), the Panchala capital ( & Drupad/Drona's hometown & Hastinapur Kuru's rival, in the Mahabharata) shows much interaction with ancient Greeks, some of whom appear to have settled down in the place. What idea originated from which location, is one aspect. The other aspect to search out is points of convergence/unity/yog. Much remains to be discovered if you lift the veil of what some Europeans label "Pagan" temples & Pagan worship in European lands. Even Christmas celebration on December 24th/25th has little to do with a birth in Bethleham, Israel & more to do the Rg Vedic deity, Mithras.

It's quite new for me , sorry !!

Dear Ratnesh Mathur, While agreeing in principle that information flow (converted to knowledge) is normally bidirectional - which is normal between equal or nearly equal partners, this does NOT appear to be the case between ancient India and other civilizations. There is simply no convincing evidence of information/knowledge inflow into ancient India in areas such as philosophy, mathematics, astronomy, science, technology, or any other subject for that matter, despite colonial-missionary and present-day Eurocentric attempts to position India as a recipient of Greek-Egypt-Babylon math and astronomy, and the spurious attempts to antedate Sumerian/Egyptian civilization to ancient Indian. Every one of the proposed inflows are debatable. There is however a lot of evidence for outflows from ancient India in every conceivable time period. Yes, I agree with you about the distinctness of Crete, Greece, Hittites, and I do consider the periodization of Greece in my talks, including its orientalizing period. If you see parts 1 and 2 of the same talk, you can notice that I make a case for great antiquity of the Indian people, using genetic and astronomy clues with the thesis that such an ancient people are the source for much of the world's knowledge, impacting us to the current day. I agree with your assessment of looking beyond the "pagan" labels and recognizing the ancient strata of Indic influences. At Indian History Awareness & Research, we do this and attempt to tie in the many data-points that we have come across with a strong and compelling narrative that is backed by scientific validation, whereever feasible. Thanks for the discussion.

https://kavirimainthan.wordpress.com/2008/09/13/a-european-on-tanjore-temple/

During my visit to big temple last week, I saw a local tourist guide explaining this statue to a bunch of people. He referred this person as Marco Polo... Don't know how far it is true...

Fascinating! I am a newbie here but am already greatly amazed at the interesting posts here!

Thanks for the share and Kiplings note too ...makes an interesting read and very informative

Will read and revert !!!! Roma RAY

Truly the poem highlights how relative our belifs are depending on our geography. Wonderful. I have been to Bruhadeeswara a few times but never noticed it.

From the descriptions by George Everest, of the Lambton incident at Tanjore, the "guy-rope tied to the Amlaka" broke & the theodolite ( still in its box) crashed down. The box was smashed entirely & the theodolite suffered damage. ( Refer John Key - The Great Arc). No damage to temple sculpture/structure is recorded, anywhere. Has any architect assessed & identified this as a later day addition ?

its defn a later addition

Who has assessed this ? ASI records ?

A great post. Opened up a great debate about Kipling's description of Indians.

Thanks Mr. Raj Vedam for sharing your immense knowledge about historical India brain and knowledge heritage.

Local guide referred person as Marco Polo during my visit to Tanjore temple 4 yrs back.I'm not do not know abt later additions.but one thing Tamil rulers were far ahead in in Temple building for ex.angor vat in Cambodia,natrajar temple in chidambaram,tirunallar temple,and dam building in cauveryand much more.

I agree same was told to me by local guide that person is Marco Polo I do not know.

Nice

See the white man is surrounded by dancing women....

My guide, last week mentioned this too but added that it could be someone else too. Then he opened out his smart phone & played out this youtube video , which I've shared on a comment above.

Ratnesh Mathur ji, I finally had an opportunity to look up the links you provided. Thanks again. I think Kipling was being just plain sarcastic of the British community in India and other prts of the world. "They" did have a "We" the superior outlook :) But I don't think he was talking about Indians when he put the "they" on trees and had them feast on blood.....I guess British were in Africa too at that time as Candy Bah mentions.

:) thank you both for the analysis..... but could he really be Marco Polo.....does the time frame fit? Marco Polo visited India in 1212 CE and the temple was built in 1010 CE. Is that why you think the sculpture was added? Can stone sculptures be added thus? Could he be someone visiting before Marco Polo? will be trying to find answers to these questions.

Candy Bah you are right, infact steel some tribes in Africa eat even human brains for that they beleives there black magic works more effectively. why even idi amin ate human flesh ,definitely not just he likes it but to retain his power .so they say .I don't know exactly but may be it is true.

Very nice

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Rita Raina, as you rightly note, the time periods do not align with the construction of the temple and Marco Polo's purported visit to India. There is controversy about Marco Polo's travels, and it is uncertain if he visited the places that he claimed.

Poetry is best read, between the lines. Lets leave it at that. Allegory & Metaphors suffice ...

It was learnt from reliable sources that these piece of sculpture was actually installed,in place of vacant spot where the existing piece was devasted in a thunderbolt,executed during lateral Serfoji regime.i.e some two hundred something years back.

Thanks sir .

Re: " All other monuments including lofty cathedrals and churches were constructed only AFTER (15th century) Europe's exposure to Indian science and math via Latin translations of Arabic texts, which in turn were translations of Sanskrit texts." A rather silly (or poorly expressed ) comment, if I may be permitted to say so... While the classical / Romanesque / ' Latin ' tradition in European architecture is undoubtedly the most widely known and the most significant ( a tradition which certainly absorbed considerable influence from the East) it is far from predominant . There are a multitude of European vernacular styles of architecture that are entirely original (Mr Rathur has made reference to just a handful in his comment above) all of which evolved as a result of unique and entirely < local > conditions and circumstances. There are also tens of thousands of individual buildings scattered across the European continent - both ecclesiastical and non-ecclesiastical (many of which are of a quite breath taking beauty - and were designed and constructed in the midst of the so-called " dark ages") that pre-date the 15th century by many hundreds of years * - and that owe no debt of inspiration to any culture other than to the one from within which they originated. To suggest otherwise is to start slipping into the realms of ' P.N. Oakian ' agenda-driven, pseudo-scholarship .... ------ * Footnote : That is not to say that such buildings have never been modified, altered, adapted, partially rebuilt or restored in subsequent centuries - or that sadly, in many cases, much of the original fabric has been lost ....

Julian Craig First off, I am not sure what you are taking away from my post. I never denied the uniqueness of ancient Greek and Roman architecture - people who were strongly tied and benefited with ancient India by trade, philosophy, astronomy, math and science, and were able to use and add to that imported knowledge in a trajectory of their own. I was responding negatively to a suggestion that the figure in question was a European architect, given the pathetic state of European scholarship of the period (note: 8th-11th century). Do you have a contrary view about this? If so, let us read it. I suggested that in the backward, Christianizing Dark Ages of Europe, perhaps the most important Byzantine structure was Hagia Sophia, and that this has been rebuilt many times. This statement of mine in no way precludes the existence of other Byzantine period structures that were rebuilt several times, and most lately, ornately with colonial loot. If you have a contrary view, please share it. Your foot note (thanks for the honesty) appears to be in consonance with what I wrote - where is the dispute? I also suggested that iconic works of the so-called European "Renaissance" period took place AFTER Western Europe's exposure to Indian math and science including Indic-related Greek works which were lost in the Christianization of Europe and the consequent dark ages. This exposure was via Spain, using Latin translations (lookup for example, Gerard of Cremona at Toledo) of Arabic texts which in turn were translations of Sanskrit and Greek works. If you think/know otherwise, then feel free to rebut with facts. Your conjectures about my purported suggestions are therefore invalid, and your partially valid assessment of European architecture is unfortunately a non-issue. Given your slipping in an innuendo of pseudo-scholarship, I am sure that you won't be offended by my returning the favor. I am used to such reaction from people who are jolted on reading something vastly different from their own deeply and pervasively programmed ideas on their purported ethno-exceptionalism, and also from mind-colonized natives who are incapable of unshackling their mind's programming. Finally, there is no need to be apologetic about posting your opinion - I wasn't when posting my opinion in a public forum, and fully expect criticism.

Uh oh ... we're going in exactly the opposite direction in this discussion, from the intent of my original post. No good will come out of a comparison of civilizations unless we seek points of unity/yog in these comparisons. Doing generic comparisons on the basis of science/technology/architectural evidence will eventually take you to useless scales of reference like the " Kardashev scale". What good ever came out of such measurements ? We will need an extra-terrestrial to judge this. Until we find one, lets not open this can of worms.

On the non opening of tins, and the non proliferation of worms .... .... fair enough. I think my point had already been made. ---------- PS. The Kipling poem is clearly < ironic > in tone.