Posted on: 13 August 2012

Lilavati (also Leelavati, Sanskrit: लीलावती, Līlāvatī) was Indian mathematician Bhāskara II's treatise on mathematics. It is the first volume of his main work Siddhānta Shiromani, Sanskrit for "Crown of treatises,"[1] alongside Bijaganita, Grahaganita and Golādhyāya.

His book on arithmetic is the source of interesting legends that assert that it was written for his daughter, Lilavati. In one of these stories, which is found in a Persian translation of Lilavati, Bhaskara II studied Lilavati's horoscope and predicted that her husband would die soon after the marriage if the marriage did not take place at a particular time. To alert his daughter at the correct time, he placed a cup with a small hole at the bottom of a vessel filled with water, arranged so that the cup would sink at the beginning of the propitious hour. He put the device in a room with a warning to Lilavati to not go near it. In her curiosity though, she went to look at the device and a pearl from her nose ring accidentally dropped into it, thus upsetting it. The marriage took place at the wrong time and she was soon widowed.

Many of the problems are addressed to Līlāvatī herself who must have been a very bright young woman. For example "Oh Līlāvatī, intelligent girl, if you understand addition and subtraction, tell me the sum of the amounts 2, 5, 32, 193, 18, 10, and 100, as well as [the remainder of] those when subtracted from 10000." and "Fawn-eyed child Līlāvatī, tell me, how much is the number [resulting from] 135 multiplied by 12, if you understand multiplication by separate parts and by separate digits. And tell [me], beautiful one, how much is that product divided by the same multiplier?"

The word Līlāvatī itself means beautiful or one possessing beauty (from Sanskrit, Līlā = beautiful, -vatī = female possessing the quality).

- Wiki

Image:
Manuscript
Bhaskara, Lilavati - Leaves 24 and 26
Credit: Wellcome Library, London


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Can we get a PDF of the translated version of this book Lilavati, somewhere?

This is priceless . Why is it in London?

Thank God it's in London, at least it's safe and well looked after there!

James Joyce...Yeah, roll out all those standard excuses to justify a number of things better left undone during the colonial era from Greece to Egypt to India.

If Sumedha has seen any of our Indian archives, he would know why several things are safe in foreign libraries. As a research scholar have worked at over a dozen archives, and also as a senior journalist, I know their excuses.

Sumedha is a woman, thank you! I do not deny that archives and other cultural artefacts often lie in a very poor state of neglect in India. This does not take away from the fact that priceless cultural and literary artefacts were looted from this country. The huge problem of neglect of their priceless heritage by Indians has a number of historical reasons ( colonialism and devaluing of indigenous culture in a systematic way through Macaulay-ist education being a big part of it.) I too am a historian and only too familiar with what Vaidya Nathan speaks of. The situation has been improving although too slowly for my liking. IMHO the solution to this problem is not to send all your priceless artefacts abroad to be gawped at as exotic curiosities but to work for their protection and conservation in an environment where they have a lived and experienced meaning.

Yes Sumedha where a marginalised, shelved bureaucrat will preside over a crumbling ruin, and bemoan 'lack of funds' till eternity or his successor whichever/whoever comes earlier. And frankly this Macaulay-ist business is a convenient cloak to hide our own inherent deficiencies. And if that makes me a closet colonialist, frankly I'm past caring. But I AM DAMN GLAD that the priceless treasure of India is LOVINGLY cared for at the IOLR. And not all who go there are gawpers at the exotic.

James Joyce -- you should care. Why do you want to short change yourself? Nothing to be proud of I would say.

Quite obviously James Joyce you don't care, why should you? It has nothing to do with you and you do not give a damn. Precisely my point. Satyakam cares, I care and a lot of people like us care because it is part of our living heritage and we want to do something to conserve, protect and make it available in its natural environment where people who have roots in this tradition can access. When I go to Sarnath and see Indians who can just about afford 10 rupees enter the museum and appreciate the Lion Capital I care; I agree, why should you? Indian deficiency in the area of conservation is huge and there are many reasons for it, a system of education which pushes Shakespeare down my throat but does not care to teach me Bhasa and Kalidasa does have something to do with it. Apart from the fact that we have been ravaged by invaders for the past 1000 years who have often cared little for people and things which had gone before them, they had no practical or emotional connect with them. This is a large topic but I am trying to discuss some of the reasons here. For me, the solution lies in awakening Indians and bringing out artefacts home. Small steps are being taken through public private partnerships and I hope to see this trickle turn into a flood. I would recommend that you ( if you are in India or visit it) travel to Mauryan sites in Bihar. There has been a sea change in the Museum and the maintenance of historical sites. Encouraging, for me!

Sumedha Verma Ojha: Roman Emperors would collect the shields of the Chiefs of the European nations which they would subjugate. War trophies -- to remind them who was the boss -- who won and who lost. These are the same. I only feel sad for those who will not see.

Thank you for sharing this delightful bit of history. Imagine our CBSE exam questions on this pattern---"Oh grubby-fingered girls and sleepy-headed boys, please crack this calculus without cheating..." Very strange way of alerting Lila to get married at the auspicious time, I must say. I don't understand it at all. Why couldn't he just tell her when it was the auspicious hour and ensure that she got married then?

Let me start by saying that I am the kind of a moderator who respects every articulate opinion and point of view. And I therefore respect Sumedha Verma Ojha as a brilliant historian, James Joyce as truly gifted writer and poet and Satyakam Sudershan who is learned and passionate about Indian history... I think we have had any number of discussions on this subject at RBSI in the past two years… and the nature of it is such that there will never be a consensus amongst all of us. I guess this is bound to happen when the pride of a nation is offended when a foreign power rules over a native population. History only highlights the fact that ancient wounds are never healed and old insults and crimes are never forgotten! As far as the topic of rare and valuable items of Indian origin…that are in the possession of western museums are concerned…where they have been preserved with the respect , care and dedication such items deserve at a considerable cost to these countries…I can only say that 'they have my absolute gratitude and admiration' for taking care of my country's proud heritage. It is an obvious fact that my own country has failed miserably to preserve its priceless heritage and we see them deteriorating right in front of our eyes every single day!! We as a country, as a government, as a bureaucracy and a people have failed and are failing even now…period! All one has to do is go to the closest public library, closest museum, closest heritage site almost anywhere in the country and see for yourself whether our extraordinary national pride is in any way helping in their preservation! The answer is of course a plain 'ZERO'! Our collective apathy towards anything to do with our heritage is due to our inherent belief that 'preservation is someone else's job'! But then everyone seems to think in exactly the same way including those who are responsible for taking care of it. In such a pathetic and dismal scenario…bringing any item of great historical value into India 'today' will only see the end of it and not continue till the next generation. I agree we have to be patriotic, maybe even nationalistic at times (though I am unclear about its relevance today)…but then lets not get carried away and bring these treasures to a country and its people who have no intention or ability to take care of them yet. Why bring one's children from a foster home when one's own home is crumbling, or on fire or filled with abusers? Pardon me…but that's exactly how I feel…especially because I deeply and passionately love my country's treasures and its heritage. Let us put our house in order first and then take up this cause internationally through diplomatic channels and ensure that they are brought back to India. Till then…I can only thank these foreign museums for taking care of my country's heritage with the care and respect they truly deserve. Let me also remind that a large part of these items would have been sold legitimately by their owners or stolen illegitimately by thieves amongst my own countrymen... for them to reach these foreign abodes. Therefore to brand all these items as 'stolen' might be inaccurate and unfair…especially since they are preserved and displayed so well for all of us to take delight in them. To end this discussion I can only remind once again about the sad state of the 'one and only' manuscript of Arthashastra which is in our country... "... The discovery of the manuscript of the 4th-century BC work from a heap of palm-leaf manuscripts, by scholar Rudrapatnam Shamasastry who published it in 1909, resulted in historians the world over acknowledging that India did have an enviable textual history. A century later, the 450-year-old manuscript is now peeling off. "It is in great danger. There is not even a locker to keep it safe," sources at ORI informed The Times of India. The national treasure is merely wrapped in a cloth and kept in a cabinet, they said. A lone guard keeps watch during night at the institute. Arthashastra and about 60,000 other manuscripts at the institute came close to being reduced to ashes in two fire accidents sparked by short-circuit in 1996 and 1998. Sadly, till date, the manuscripts have not been secured in fireproof chambers. A fumigation machine donated by the Ford Foundation to protect manuscripts from insects, fungi and algae is not working. ORI has neither funds nor autonomy, the sources said. "There is a crisis, and we are seeking funds to address it," admitted ORI director M Shivakumaraswamy. "Presently, all we are doing to preserve the manuscript is by way of oil treatment. But more needs to be done." Read more: http://bit.ly/NfQSiZ

So well articulated RBSI! Kudos

RBSI -- first and foremost let me say a few things -- I have read your entire post carefully, twice and I would be the first to say that it is extremely well articulated and there is much to agree with in that write up. I have also "liked" the post to reflect my appreciation (however given the fact that I end up liking nearly everything that RBSI posts -- my likes may have become a little devalued :-P) Now to the more interesting points -- the disagreements -- let me mention my key difference of opinions with what you have put down: You said >> whether our extraordinary national pride You see national pride in our country? Where? I dont. I see only a beaten down people, constantly reminded how they are "not good enough" for having their own achievements belittled as loudly as possible by other "superior" Indians who have "seen the world" I dont see the Govt Of India having any pride in India -- I see the entire middle class which is part of the establishment (which includes all of us) -- to be sleep walking marionettes mumbling through life brainwashed.

Continuing >> stolen illegitimately by thieves amongst my own countrymen... for them to reach these foreign abodes. Therefore to brand all these items as 'stolen' might be inaccurate and unfair How so? A person who deliberately encourages such practices by purchasing contraband goods is clean how? Isnt the person far worse than the simple thief? These people deliberately using the power of money at disposal (also probably looted elsewhere) then encourage the now poor to part with their traditions for money ? None of this has been done for alturistic or high principles, what is the problem if that is pointed out? More points coming shortly :-) ......

RBSI I cannot but agree with the points you have made in your post about the neglect of our heritage, however much it saddens me to do so. This is a big problem. What is the solution? Obviously awakening Indians to their own heritage and making ourselves well equipped to conserve , cherish and learn from our history. The solution is not to feel 'grateful' about artefacts lying outside the country and close our eyes to our responsibility. And is not RBSI, where so many passionate people congregate to discuss these issues the very forum to ignite a spark? Any 'gratitude' or 'admiration' for the conservation of these artefacts is tempered, perhaps extinguished by many other facts 1. Many of these artefacts were carried away from India simply because the colonial rulers had the power to do so. The British Museum is full of these. They are inaccessible to the general Indian public. 2. The research and investigation and efforts made to 'understand', describe and document Indian culture was made not out of any sense of respect ( although some individuals may have had that sense) but to learn in order to control; also in order to denigrate and devalue. English translations of many literary works are therefore unreadable if published during the colonial period, so full are they of gratuitous insults especially of 'Hindoos' not to speak of contorted theories that if at all there is anything admirable it must have come from Greece etc etc. I have pointed them out at times on this forum. Which is also why I deplore what I sometimes feel is your Anglo Indian bias. ( I may be wrong in which case I apologise in advance) 3. The fact that India was invaded by Muslims in the 11th century and then uptil the 20th century was under the thrall of some or the other outside powers ( some of them may certainly have put down their roots here) is no small fact which you have dismissed above in one sentence. It speaks of the tragedy yet resilience of an old, perhaps the oldest living , continuous civilization in human history. Yet this has left its mark in the mental subjugation of Indians in the field of ideas and self respect. 4. The Western European or British museums who have these artefacts are not in the business of charity. they charge through the nose for a chance to view these articles. Do calculate the revenue they get from some of these big ticket items which they obviously do not want to return. It is only the well heeled who can afford access to them. Will the Greek Marbles ( I refuse to call them the Elgin Marbles), the bust of Nefertiti, the Kohinoor ever be returned? The revenue of the places holding these would suffer a sharp fall. So let us not be too grateful...they are often making money not doing you and me a favour. ( There may be a few exceptions) I would say the Egyptians are worst hit, the Germans, French and British have carved up the carcass of ancient Egypt between them. I cannot change history, I must accept it...but I can look to a different future. In that future I would definitely want Indian cultural heritage to be back in India...to be conserved and looked after.

>> More points coming shortly :-) ...... Ok most of the points I was about to make were already covered by Sumedha Verma Ojha I can only agree. I want to add just one more point -- the modern approach to conservation is to preserve the material in situ, not even taking the material out to a museum but keep it in the temples, palaces etc where they belong and support them there. The ASI seems to be a big proponent of this approach. In that context, just removing the material from India, does a great damage to the preservation effort, irrespective of which basement of which museum they are hoarded in with howsoever much care.

Absolutely Satyakam Sudershan In situ archaelogical analysis of 'digs' is a very delicate job. Miniscule movements in the delineation of layers shifts conclusions by miles. Forget about uprooting stuff and taking it where you will. Of course a lot of this devastation has already taken place. :(

Sumedha Verma Ojha: Few people can match your eloquence and the conviction in your fiery arguments. I agree with most of your later points regarding the oppression of the Indian people and its impact on the collective consciousness. However, I do not agree with some of your presumptions against the British since it was they who set up the entire structure for conservation of heritage and monuments in India. Hundreds of posts, books and discussions at RBSI clearly validate that. Too many to repeat yet once again, But let me redirect this discussion which has moved away in a tangent by Satyakam Sudershan's articulate and yet sort-of ideological exposition to what the discussion was all about in the first place. - No one denies that these treasures are Indian and that every Indian wants them back in his/her country. - It is another matter that the rules of the past (including in India) regarding the right of possession of 'victor's spoils' by the victor. - The moot point is that we are not yet ready to bring these treasures back and it is time to look inwards and clean up our house before we do that. - Three generations have passed since we got our independence and it is illogical to blame the British!! for the slovenliness and corruption in our system. - Let us direct our anger to the 'present' and make our museums and its staff worthy of taking care of this treasures before we even venture to bring them back.

There are different kinds of 'anger' at issue here. There are many things wrong with India today, lack of conservation is one in a long list...all these problems give rise to an 'anger' or discussion within the country which is mostly the business of those of this country. That is very different from the anger and agony I feel at the past history of the invasion of this country. Please do not confuse the two. I absolutely do not share your views on British rule...the basically it was good thing for the country kind of attitude. It was a 190 years of exploitation and humiliation with the co opting of the local elite ( which remain co opted). British people and British culture I enjoy and like at times but firmly in their own country not in mine.I also have very good British friends which is completely different from my views on British rule. Indian civilization and the Indian character have a long way to go before they recover from the despoiling of so many years. If we are not ready to bring anything back at the moment how do you propose we do become ready? Feeling grateful and genuflecting before those 'saviors' of Indian artefacts is not going to help. As for blaming the Brits that is another discussion altogether because we have copied their systems wholesale in this country and all of those systems are not really working. For all the efforts made at conservation in their own style (which may not have been the best way) you have the contra examples of the destruction of most of the constructions of the the Red Fort Complex in Delhi after 1857, or the destruction of the Indus Valley remains, the Ellora caves ( you can see the defaced sculptures today), the Taj Mahal ( bullet holes I believe?) ...I think I could trade example for example with you. So lets not get carried away with the conservation motif. You are not alone in what you feel; many , if not most of the members of RBSI are admirers of the British, indeed sometimes offensively so. I can do nothing about that. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I can only hope that people in general will slowly come to an understanding of what they have lost or gained.

Sumedha Verma Ohja: In no way would I typecast you as a British hater...just because you blame them for the many wrongs that have undoubtedly taken place in the past. It only means your perception, sensitivity and understanding of these events mixed with a sense of justice and self respect is far greater than most people. It is good you mentioned that in your comment explaining the difference for readers to understand. It is akin to my debates with friends who often mistake my dislike towards American foreign policy with dislike towards Americans in general...which you will agree is silly and immature. I too have gone through many an intense inner journey regarding the wrongs that has happened to my country and it's people in the past. There has been all shades of anger. But as one reads, learns and understands more (this varies from person to person) one sees so many shades of grey that forces ones anger to transform itself to understanding. History across the world only shows how unfair and unjust life is and it is one long history of oppression. Thit is a fact. I am now learning to see the past wrongs 'without anger' and accept it in a dispassionate manner just as a student should. It then opens a whole wide world which is indeed breathtaking...free of biases and resentments. But then...that's entirely my personal view...and I am not sermonizing here.

RBSI is no apologist for the British or any other foreign race that has ruled over India. It accepts India's past the 'way it has been' and does not venture into thinking the 'way it should have been'...which is essentially a path of speculation in history. Accept the past the way it has been...acknowledge the influences it has had on the present (good and bad)...celebrate pluralism and humanism...and believe that our right for judgement and action is only for the 'present'. Therefore one will not see an agenda or bias here... And yes! I truly admire the British for the good they have done. As much as I admire the good the Mughals, the Buddhists, the Jains, the Hindus and the Kushans have done for this country. Not only do I admire the good... I also acknowledge the bad they have done too! But then...such is the stuff of history and the the story of mankind...and I am but a simple observer.

... To take a step away from attempting to claim the ' moral high ground ' (see various comments above - and which incidently - is always a rather dubious occupation) and return to the original topic of debate ( ie. Indian heritage protection both at home and abroad), I would wish simply to add: This subject has been discussed at the RBSI on several occasions, and at many other digital sites and media forums, and while the details remain controversial - understandably - there is at least a degree of consensus between the respective parties - both British and Indian... viz ... for the time being (and for perhaps the next 30+ years) most, but by no means all, of the various ' Indian ' cultural artifacts that are held in Western institutions and collections are better off where they are - this is a simple fact - it is beyond question - even if these items are only being held ' in trust' etc & etc... but this is not a static issue, it is being discussed at various diplomatic levels, and some items are being returned ( in a previous thread I forwarded an article that highlighted certain ongoing projects, I can no longer find it, but perhaps the RBSI would be able to relocate it ?) There are, however, considerable obstacles to more immediate progress being made. Beyond the non-willingness of European institutions in returning cultural/ historical items to their Indian equivalents because they fear that such items will not be maintained, preserved etc to the same standard that they are being at present (and who can honestly blame them when the usual patriotic rhetoric is stripped away?) and have been for, in some instances, 200 years and more - there are many complicated legal issues involved.... If, for example, an Englishman purchased a statue or a manuscript collection (and the vast majority of such items were obtained in an entirely legal, if not always scrupulous fashion – contrary to all of the tiresome ‘loot and plunder’ mongers’) from an sub-continental Nawab or Rajah, or private dealer, in say 1865 – and the Englishman subsequently took the item back to Europe with him and then sold or donated it to a museum – who should it now be returned to ? Who ‘owns’ it ? The Government of India (a bastion of incorruptibility if ever there was one) ? How do you work that out? On what grounds is this ‘ownership’ based? Many of these items were purchased from political entities that no longer exist, at a time when the GOI was but a distant figment of the embryonic ‘nationalist’ imagination.... These are arguments that cannot be lightly dismissed by simple (or even belligerent) sentimentality I think that there are strong grounds for returning to India (in due course, down the line) items that were obtained by illegitimate means (or by means that we might consider illegitimate by modern standards – the ‘loot’) – but – not those items that remain in private ownership and that were obtained in a perfectly legal fashion in the first place.... unless, of course, the owner is prepared to sell or donate to an Indian institution or individual (China is busy doing this as we speak).

^^^ Brought in honest manner? What a lark. While the typical English understatement refers to those purchases as "unscrupulous" is really not doing justice to the way these items were "procured". Let me start quoting some of these honorable purchases shortly.

RBSI -- every stand is a ideological stand, to not take a stand is also a stand. One always judges, even observation causes judgement (Schordinger's cat anyone)

Re: " every stand is a ideological stand, to not take a stand is also a stand." ...Not so - only to those of craven mind... ( Bullet holes in the Taj Mahal anyone ?) Anyhow - I fail to see how arguing over the nature of the political realities of the 19th century - on today of all days - is of any constructive value whatsoever in a debate about heritage protection in modern India... We are all aware of the background... but neither party will be able to resolve the situation to their satisfaction in isolation... so lets leave the (often highly dubious) ideological references at the doorstep.

>> - is of any constructive value But I do, therefore I shall persist :-)

...Re: 'Constructive' values and modern realities Mr Sudershan ~ As they like to say in Japan : "What is the sound of one hand clapping ?" ' Persist' if you must with the ideological fireworks & semantics (as well as with the continuous propagation of the numerous historical 'distortions', if not outright falsehoods of which you are so fond ) if you must Mr Sudershan, for as a citizen of a - loosely - democratic nation such as India , that is indeed your own perogative, and I think that many of the RBSI members are (by now) quite aware of which side you prefer to butter your own political bread - but - if you are in any way serious about addressing the ACTUAL, important issue of heritage protection in India then I suggest that you might wish to channel your clear and abundant energies into organisations (and there are almost as many such organisations in Britain as there are in India) that are attempting to resolve this matter in as dignified and as non-partisan manner as circumstances will possibly allow.... 'Nationalism', afterall, is but a pompous barrier that prevents useful co-operation - and - is only ever built on dangerous and constantly shifting sands, wherein 'national' identity is raised to the level of idolatry. It seems to me that not many people today (both 'here' or 'there') are reallythat interested in expressing their own sense of ' moral outrage' or, conversely, their ' patritoic pride' at the events of 150 years ago - those that do are routinely dismissed as cranks or bigots, if not both - most people these days, I believe, prefer to seek pragmatic, practical solutions to contemporary issues and problems. With all various respect, and as ever & etc & etc ...

... Incidently, for the record ... Re: " [ the ] British museums who have these [ ' Indian ' ] artefacts are not in the business of charity. they charge through the nose for a chance to view these articles. " This is not true. Entrance to the British Museum in London (where most of the major sub-continental collections that are held in Britain are on permanent display - when not on loan to other museums around the world that are considered capable of their up-keep) is entirely free of charge - and has been for as long as I can personally remember - 20 years ? (see below).... I see no particular reason to slander non-political institutions that undertake fine and noble work and have been doing so for the better part of two hundred years : http://www.britishmuseum.org/visiting/admission_and_opening_times.aspx

... Incidently x 2... Re: " The research and investigation and efforts made to 'understand', describe and document Indian culture was made not out of any sense of respect ( although some individuals may have had that sense) but to learn in order to control; also in order to denigrate and devalue. English translations of many literary works are therefore unreadable if published during the colonial period, so full are they of gratuitous insults especially of 'Hindoos' not to speak of contorted theories that if at all there is anything admirable it must have come from Greece etc etc. " ... Strong and damning language, certainly - but the sentiments expressed above represent a purely personal opinion - and should have been phrased accordingly and acknowledged as such - not couched in the language of "fact" - which it clearly is not.... In the 18th century British polymaths such as Henry Thomas Colebrook, and the first of the great ‘orientalists’, Sir William Jones - were so profoundly impressed by the sophistication of the different cultures that they encountered on their travels in ' India ', that they immersed themselves in the study of sub-continental history, custom, lore and language and devoted enormous energies to the careful translation of the sacred texts of Islam and of Hinduism. They did not undertake such tasks, often at the expense of their own health, in order to simply " learn how to control".... Indeed, Jones wrote disparagingly of the short-sighted European scholars and statesmen of his own time who viewed the East from a smug and dismissive Eurocentric perspective. Such individuals, he maintained, were the real philistines who : “loved to excuse or conceal [their own] ignorance, and are seldom willing to allow excellence beyond the limits of [their] own attainments; like the ancient savages who thought that the sun rose and set for them alone, and who could not imagine that the waves that surrounded their island, left coral and pearls upon any other shore.” ... and they say that history moves in cycles, dont they ?

Julian Craig >> Its all very easy to claim "moderation" AFTER the act is done. :-) That sort of self proclaimed moderation, is amusing, but such transparent eyewash that its easy to see through it. I am also under no illusion that the material looted from India will come back to India by helpful cooperation from both sides. Yes, when India develops enough power heft, may be England maybe "persuaded" to let go at a nominal price after due "negotiations." Till then keeping the truth alive, in the morass of untruths, lies and obfuscations. To be quite frank -- I have no issues with you or any other Britisher for the views that you hold or they have held either in work or action. I expect nothing else quite frankly. So in case you think I am offended by your thought worry not. For example, we are in full agreement when you say. >> China is busy doing this as we speak I am fully aware that the British will only understand the way the current Chinese govt speaks. All I am trying to do is to get that in the head of my countrymen. To make the British listen, be prepared to be like the Chinese -- unfortunately many of them still shudder at the thought. That is my target audience. You and I, we are on the same page. :-)

Sumedha: Some points you made are being contested. You want to clarify?

RBSI what is fascinating is the remarkable insouciance with which some of the worst crimes against humanities is passed off -- this is the tradition that RBSI I am sorry to say you take a neutral stance towards. I hope you get time to read this. This for example is not even Indian http://www.modernghana.com/news/405992/1/blood-antiquities-in-respectable-havens-looted-ben.html This unworthy argument that the owners of looted Benin objects have not put in a claim is a remarkable tradition of Western museology. The British Museum has always maintained that there has been no request for the return of the Benin artefacts even though the Oba of Benin sent a petition to the British Parliament. printed in Parliamentary records. (17) Despite this record we still hear from some museum officials, as a variation of this argument, that there have been no formal requests. How much more formal can a request be than a petition to the British Parliament? The Nigerian Government has on several occasions requested the return of looted Nigerian artefacts. As recently as 2008, the Benin Royal Family sent a demand to museums for the return of the artefacts. (Annex ll). The museum directors have till today not even bothered to acknowledge receipt of the petition, hand carried by a member of the Royal Family to the Art. At the opening of the exhibition- Benin - Kings and Rituals: Court Arts from Nigeria in Vienna, and subsequently in Berlin and Chicago, the request for the return of the artefacts was reiterated. (18)

A chronicle by Stanford, describing what Julian Craig passed off as "slightly unscrupulous" and this is now, when they are not even running the colonial exploitation http://www.stanford.edu/group/chr/stealinghistory.pdf

Satyakam Sudershan There are some people on this forum with whom I do not engage after their oblique threats on a previous occasion to report comments and get this forum shut down which were condoned by the administrator. ( I am sure you remember what I am referring to). In general ( and you know this very well) that is the reason I have taken my discussions elsewhere. I do not appreciate functioning in an atmosphere of threats and attempted intimidation. I would be glad to discuss anything with anyone else who may want to raise any issue.

Interestingly Britain only signed the 1970 UNESCO convention against illicit traffic in 2002 after great duress. Still that is a loose convention which they signed after 30 years. The more strict one the 1995 convention they will still not sign http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20110915/business-comment/The-return-of-paintings.384822 Some notable countries that have chosen to opt out of these conventions are the UK and Switzerland, and have done so out of choice. They are famously art market nations who, by staying out, have removed the risk of receiving countless requests for return. _________________________________________________ Julian Craig claimed else where that admission to UK museums where most of Indian and Asian are free and have been for the longest time as far as he can remember. Unfortunately the facts are otherwise http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_and_Albert_Museum Following in similar vein to other national British museums, entrance to the museum has been free since 2001. This is the "famous" museum suitably named after the chief patrons of such acts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_destroyed_libraries The British looted the palace at the end of the 3rd Anglo-Burmese War (some of the artefacts which were taken away are still on display in the Victoria and Albert Museum in London)[16] and burned down the royal library. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Anglo-Burmese_War The British organized the looting of the palace and city of Mandalay. The proceeds were sold off at a profit of 9 lakhs of rupees. ___________________________________________________ http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15979878 But is free really free? :-) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-15970638 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Satyamev Jayate.

Sumedha Verma Ojha -- I posted a small list from neutral international sources, and that is a tiny list of the material that exists. You think that should be enough to "prove" the points in a honest debate, dont you think?

Of course the free does not state that still nearly anything and everything worth seeing is ticketed separately -- so yes, they can claim free, while actually charging 10-20 pounds per head for for every exhibition, of which there are many :-) Few of the 100000000 examples on their web stie http://www.britishmuseum.org/whats_on/past_exhibitions/2011/book_of_the_dead/book_tickets.aspx http://www.britishmuseum.org/whats_on/exhibitions/treasures_of_heaven/book_tickets.aspx http://www.britishmuseum.org/whats_on/past_exhibitions/2009/shah_abbas/book_tickets.aspx http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/b/bookings-and-tickets/

Satyakam Sudershan I may also point out that I said Western European or British museums ,not the British Museum and misquoting is normally to be avoided in any argument. Not in this one obviously :) Actually the museum I was thinking of was the Neues Museum in Berlin where the bust of Nefertiti is kept. (It is fabulous by the way). But there are numerous examples. And even the British Museum 's policies are up for discussion as you have noted. Another bugging thing; in many European museums if you are a student in the EU you get in free but not if you are a student in India or Egypt..... others can see your heritage free but you do not...and maybe you do not have the 10 15 euros needed. I think this was the case either in the Louvre or the Vatican Museum but i will have to check .

Re : " Julian Craig claimed else where that admission to UK museums where most of Indian and Asian are free and have been for the longest time as far as he can remember." Not quite - ' Julian Craig' - suggested elsewhere that the 'British Museum' ,not *all* British museums, had been free for as long as he could remember - which is about roughly twenty years... ...the British museum has, in fact, been free to enter for much longer than even he was previously aware... ie. since its creation in 1753 (see below). Have you ever been to the British Museum Mr Sudershan - somehow I think not - but I'm sure somebody of your rapier like intellect would enjoy such a visit... It's an enormous building (as it would have to be to stash all that ill-gotten loot inside wouldn't it ?) ... you can spend days, even weeks inside ' gawking' at all the ' exotica' therein - if you ever " visit or are in " * England do please take advantage of the free entrance to view, I would estimate, 95% of the items/ artifacts/ arts/ crafts and manuscript collections, won't you ? The exhibitions, you will note, from the handy links that you have provided are normally on loan from other institutions and the charges are made to defer the huge costs involved in their staging.... As to the further body of your remarks - Wikipedia (written by all and sundry, perhaps even the Mr Sudershan's of this world?) and the 'Times of Malta ' - you really broke all of the boundaries of academic inquiry there 'mate' didn't you - really pulled out all the stops - what's next, the reverse side of a packet of cornflakes and a reading from the tea-leaves ? *just returning a favour for Mr James Joyce of Calcutta (who was dismissed with a certain degree of entirely charmless patronisation in the comments above) http://www.britishmuseum.org/about_us/the_museums_story/general_history.aspx

... PS. In fairness to Mr Sudershan, I had not detected the 'Stanford' link that he has provided above amongst the finer details of his usual anti-British diatribe - now this sort of thing is much more interesting - but at 64 pages any responce on my part (if one is required ? I sincerely hope not) will have to wait for a day or two...

>> ' Julian Craig' - suggested elsewhere that the 'British Museum' ,not *all* British museums, had been free for as long as he could remember - which is about roughly twenty years... What a lark. The discussion was on all Western musesums. 1) You automatically tried to push in one musesum as a example 2) Now your memory is down to 20 years when pointed that major changes happened in 2001 3) As it has been shown that free is also not free. Anyway >> finer details of his usual anti-British diatribe Actually calling names to truth does not change the truth, only shows the person throwing mud at truth is. Carry on with your foul mouthed fulminations of what is a historically accurate description of the British actions in the past. Do you think that changes the past? Unfortunately the "restatement" of the such past does not really does so. Hard luck.

But why should they be free?? I am completely at loss here. Every Institution has its costs for upkeep, upgradation and maintenance. These treasures are so wonderfully preserved because these Institutions have been sensible enough to partly fund by themselves. If they didnt do that... the manuscript (Lilavati) in this post would be in the same pathetic state of the only copy of Arthashastra in the ORI in Mysore!! Incidentally, their excuse is...lack of funds!

RBSI >> Whether a museum should be free or not or whether it should charge is debate in its own right and points can be made either ways, there are merits to both sides. For example Labour thought that heritage should be more accessible and made all their national galleries free. That is one argument. However the issue here was not whether they should be free or not -- but what were the prices for a typical musesum visit in the west -- this was triggered of by Sumedha comparison of Indians being able to access their heritage in Indian (Sarnath) at 5 Rs, but it being not affordable to most Indians in the west due to prices which make it difficult for even a person living in those countries. Of course the 10-20 Pounds/Euros admission to one gallery (and there are many such in a museum) is really nothing compared to the money a Indian would need to put down to be able to get close to such a museum starting from India. That is the context of the debate -- clearly visiting a musesum in not a cheap exercise, which with my personal experience in UK I can quite easily attest to -- the notional free on some museums not withstanding.

The arguments (if they're that) against the preservation of 'national treasures' in western archives/museums however painstaking and diligent such preservation, in the face of local alternatives which are capable only of assuring their swift destruction through the elements and cupidity remind me of an earthy proverb in my own tongue which, translated, means: "The mother will neither feed her child nor allow it to beg." On an off tack, I wonder why the opprobrium of colonial cupidity is attached only to the British - the Moslem invaders from the 10th century onwards were not lacking in acquisitiveness. Of course, most of them chose the easier route of iconoclasm - destruction is so much simpler after all. Yet the mores of political correctness decree any reference to this a strict no-no. As I said elsewhere, the British have no vote bank potential. And Julian , a hat tip :)

Why should we complain when we spend the same amount... without even thinking for lets say a burger and a coke??

>> I wonder why the opprobrium of colonial cupidity is attached only to the Britis There is no such restraint, any and all those engage in loot will be called looters. Unless we are being politically correct, or using the subtle art of understatement. :-) The difference that you talk about primarily comes from the fact that most British would not like to have that association attached to them (even if true) any more -- where as many other nationalities couldn't care less. __________________________________________________ RBSI >> Why should we complain when we spend the same amount... without even thinking for lets say a burger and a coke?? You lost me. What is relevance of the above in what context?

James Joyce, if you read my posts carefully, I have mentioned 1000 years of slavery not just 200 years,( see my post of Monday, 9:16 hrs) for the current situation and mindset prevailing in India. Let me put my argument in perspective. Agreeing with the comments on this thread regarding the status of conservation in India I was thinking of a catalyst for change, an icon around which the whole new narrative of conservation in India could be woven...'Bring back the Kohinoor' for instance? It could spark off an interest in this issue and some constructive work , perhaps? Giving up and accepting the position in India is not going to help in any way. RBSI, really did not get your bit about burgers; the kind of people I am talking about who I met in Sarnath, Patna, Kushinagar, Kumhrar etc are not in the economic bracket you assume them to be in ( A lady who came up to me with her kids was a domestic worker who probably earned 1500 per month obviously not the burger cola variety but she really wanted to know about the museum exhibits ). Regarding free museums I think Satyakam has correctly explained my position.

Sumedha Verma Ojha I respect you tremendously (and I mean that with all the sincerity at my command). And I respect the earnestness of your objectives. Yet the political and moral climate of this country (mine as much as anybody else's), to say nothing of the absence of a sense of history and the complete lack of significance (forget sanctity) attached to antiquarian/archival endeavours does not give any ground for hope. 'Lack of funds' will be the lugubrious litany we shall hear till our graves. Why should the government be concerned with Indian treasures abroad when its minions are busy becoming dollar billionaires through scams? The real scholars, the passionate antiquarian/archival enthusiasts are happy that the treasures that matter to them (as opposed to the dollar signs swimming in front of the eyes of ministers and their flunkies) are at least safe, even if in distant lands. And the lucky ones even get to see them, work with them (most of the books on Indian history written in the last and the present century couldn't have been written without the help of the British Library and the IOLR - ask any scholar, and he/she will readily acknowledge the debt). As for the Kohinoor, do we really want it? Especially given its not so happy history. I should think we have enough misfortunes without an unlucky stone adding to them :)

James Joyce -- if I may say so, hopelessness is very poetic, but I find that to be the most corrosive emotion that the human spirit is capable of. IMVHO etc. I refuse to take the dark despairing hopeless approach and consider it a guide on how to navigate the real world -- that way lie demons.

Thank you James Joyce!...for putting words to my angst. If you just look around among our political class...and can you have any hope for this country after that?? With due respect to all the persuasive arguments on this thread... I have to admit that I entirely agree with JJ! I would want all our treasures which are outside India to remain in safety there...till we preserve and conserve the ones we have in our own land which might be a hundred times more in number and value...most or many in a state of decay and deterioration. Let us use all our precious resources to protect the ones in hand...learn the art of preservation...teach our people and the caretakers the value of our heritage...build sufficient number of Institutions to house them...fund them and make them self-sustainable...hang the caretakers who pilfer these treasures...and then 'get back' our treasures from these foreign lands!! Never before that! Does anyone have any idea of the present state of the treasures of the Padmanabha Temple which was valued at 2,00,000 lakh crores or $50 Billion last year?? Can we really believe that they have not been pilfered yet? I have heard rumors (could be true) that many of these treasures would be replaced with fake replicas and the originals would be pilfered. All these Temples are managed by Politicians appointed by the Government. The more one learns about these issues from the insiders...the more one gets depressed. In such a dismal scenario...to take a stand based on noble patriotic ideals...would definitely be unwise in my opinion.

People, please, do not give up! After all we are also there, people like us! Making a small difference somewhere, maybe? James Joyce maybe you are right about the Kohinoor ( I am not too fond of diamonds either) but my point would be to weave a narrative around an icon. The Kohinoor has emotive value....so maybe? I have been thinking about this for a while and let us see what the future holds,( if anything).

RBSI >> Please do not mind, but I will offer a criticism -- as long as defeatism abounds -- neither will the heritage be safe inside and never will we even dream of getting the heritage back. This lost cause defeatism and poor maintenance of what we have internally are in my humble opinion, two sides of the same coin. If the mindset changes, both will change or none at all - and I will refuse to succumb to defeatism. The mindset has to change -- unfortunately I feel that the leaders that India chose to lead (no not politicians -- the "intellectuals") have been the biggest non performers of India. They have let India down totally. Even politicians have performed better -- the Intelligentsia are happy being pale me-too parodies of those who have current power heft. Spineless to offer a different discourse, beating on India and Indians, but not standing up to the issues at hand. Where is Indian Voltaire? Where are our Russo's? That does not take money does it? The thought leadership lacking -- rest is dust.

I agree with you SS...where are they? Exactly my question? How does me being defeatist or inspired make any difference today? Wake up Sir...this is the reality. Take a look at this: Groups spar over treasure trove found in Kerala temple http://bit.ly/P19vra The eminent judge wants the treasures to be sold for the poverty alleviation of the people. Noble intention indeed. But would the Vatican sell its treasures to bail out the EU? And how exactly and to whom exactly does the eminent judge plan to dispose these priceless antiques? How transparent would the valuation and sale process be? How many Indians would be able to afford these jewels or would it be sold to Arabs and Americans too? Ah...how boring are these minor details...aren't they? They just spoil my elated and inspired spirit.

>> How does me being defeatist or inspired make any difference today? Wake up Sir...this is the reality. >> The eminent judge wants the treasures to be sold for the poverty alleviation of the people. Noble intention indeed. Why not after all the Judge comes from the same background as you and me. If we offer "oh it cant be cared for in India all better outside" -- Why should not a right thinking man say "lets just sell it and make money for the country before it rots" You have provided the perfect ideological platform, haven't you? When there is no hope or desire to cherish and hold. When loot and loss are also acceptable. When the Native identity is same as a agressors identity. What does anything matter -- its all the same. >> But would the Vatican sell its treasures to bail out the EU? After all compare Vaticans ideological stance vis a vis what is "allowed" in India. You want Vatican like behavior but not vatican like ideology. :-) What is the reason to hold on? Let it go to hell. All of it. Whats so special about Lord Padmanbhans treasure, which is not true for other loots. Why do I feel for one and not for the other. Every bit helps after all -- it is we who shape thoughts -- we can at least be responsible for what thoughts are we shaping. To be frank -- any one inspired from RBSI would not mind in a bit if the entire heritage of India was in UK or somewhere as long as they could be allowed to see once in a while -- that is the take away I get, and am sure I am not completely mad that I read that subtext in your views. You have just prepared the next generation of Indian judges looking forward to sell the treasure -- after all its all lost cause -- there is no fire, no hurt no passion. Its a clincal exercise and as Indian elite, we can do it anywhere in the world. Rest be damned. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sorry for being harsh -- but this is honestly what I feel, this is my anguish in words, and I am being bold in the hope that we have now understood each other enough, for me to take this liberty. No offences meant ofcourse and suitable apologies in advance.

RBSI I did not expect this level of hopelessness from you. Nothing happens in a day. There are so many of us not only on RBSI but many other forums on Facebook who are now interested and perhaps a bit awake to their heritage. I find a welcome change from 20 years for instance when all these issues were not even a topic of discussion. Are we always going to abdicate our own responsibility and look outwards for succour; someone else will take care of everything we will wallow in hopelessness. That is not me and I did not think that was you either.

SVO: You are speaking my thoughts exactly...let us look inward first. Take care of what we have. Create an honest and inspired leadership first! SS: I give up. I am unable to understand the complexity of your argument.

>> SS: I give up. I am unable to understand the complexity of your argument. :-)

SS: Give up...only because of sheer exasperation, not defeat! Your trail of logic is scary sometimes...hope you are aware of that.

My concern RBSI is whether the logic trail is accurate or not -- that IMVHO is the only judgement of logic -- of how much of real world the model approximates. Rest is interpretation ;-)