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nipal or nepal?

We call it Nepal today...probably it was Nipal then. Sounds the same. : )

Nepal was actually the name of the valley around Kathmandu. When Maharaja Dhiraj Prithvi Narayan Shahdev united the whole region into one country, he decided to call it Nepal.

Regrettably the Narayanhiti is today devoid of the first family of Nepal. It was a sad day when monarchy was de-recognised there.In a way the continuation of the glorious institution of monarchy in Nepal late into the 20th century massaged the egoes of all the people of my comminity including me that somewhere in the world at least a Hindu (Rajput) king still reigned. In the wake of Nepal plunging into anarchy even sadder news emanated that pooja has been stalled in the centuries old Pashupatinath temple on account of an impasse with the new 'rulers'. Thankfully better sense prevailed in a matter of a few days only.Once a breakthrough could be achieved by the vetran congressman the former Maharaja Karan Singhji of Kashmir who had been sent there by the Indian govt. to break the grid-lock The Chinese mischief notwithstanding there, I am ashamed to add here that several Indian politicians with vested interests have abetted and tacitly worked towards the overthrow of the monarchy there. Such elements were active even during the reign of his majesty, late King Birendra who was immensely popular.Most Indian royalty and even nobility have Nepalese Rana blood in them on account of centuries of matrimonial alliances so the plight of the nobility there breaks our heart.

Their late majesties King Birendra and Queen Aishwarya had approached the Jaipur's first family for the hand in marriage of the (baijilal) princess with late crown prince and heir apparent Dipendra in the nineties.For some reasons the alliance could not work out. I still speculate that had that proposal reached fruition perhaps two royal houses could have been saved from ruin.

I highly doubt that the alliance would have saved Late Maharaj Dhiraj Birendra and his immediate family. Being directly related, its amusing to see such ideas since the Shahi family already had alliances with most of the influential Indian royal families. Even if Late CP Dipendra had entered into a marriage with the Princess of Jaipur, so many relatives from both families were already interlinked, thus making such hypothesis that such an alliance could have somehow saved the royal house of Gorkha from ruin is pretty far-fetched. Narayanhati has always been inauspicious as a residence, it was the residence of my mother's grandfather until 1885, when the Shumshers committed the massacre of Jung Bahadur's line. It only came back to the Shahi family after Maharaj Dhiraj Tribhuvan came back to power. BTW the reason why Karan Singhji (he is more of a modern statesman and a visionary) took a personal mission to see if he could help (and was not sent) is because his wife is from the Rana family of Nepal as well (she is the Granddaughter of Maharaj Mohan Shumsher Rana) , therefore its an immediate family connection and directly related to the Shahi family of Nepal.

One more thing, para:"most Indian royalty have Nepali Rana blood in them, not because of "Centuries" of matrimonial alliances".....we are descended from the Royal house of Udaipur. Thus such a statement is very misleading. Earlier every queen of Nepal married into the Shahi family, or House of Gorkha was from Kangra and surrounding Himachal territories, but that is the Shahi family who we become related to after the rise of Sri Teen Maharaja Jung Bahadur. The father of Jung Bahadur and his brother was Kazi Bal Narsingh Kunwar Ranaji, my forefather, he was directly descended from the Ranas of Mewar/Udaipur. If you are referring to immediate alliances between the Ranas of Nepal and other Indian royals then this takes place in the mid 1800s. Before the mid-1800s, most of the powerful alliances were with the smaller kingdoms within Nepal itself. Please be more careful before you assume things about my family.

I doubt that anyone is deliberately assumong facts about your heritage Sumer ! There are so many books written on any one topic and in diaogues at RBSI some misinformation may get corrected .

dialogues ,,,

Who knows on account of that alliance there may have been born an heir to the throne of Nepal who could have survived that unfortunate ‘incident’ on account of being in Jaipur at that time. Maybe the house of Jaipur could have also been saved from self-destruction if that alliance had come about, for our clan chief’s line has come to an abrupt end, at least officially now. Obviously until the means of transport weren’t that well developed all royalty married in their close vicinity. Alliances with far off dynasties began only after the stability afforded to north Indian kingdoms once they entered into treaties with the EIC which froze the fluid boundaries of their kingdoms. Most did so to avoid the growing threat of the Marathas who had become a formidable force to contend with by that time and used to engage in periodic ‘Chauth wasuli’. UP (now UK) and Punjab (now HP) hill kingdoms have had alliances with Nepal for a long time now and since all the others have had with the latter two all of us have some element of Rana blood in some measure or the other.The mixing of blood is thus a centuries old phenomena. The Ranas are of Shishodiya descent hence they have never had any matrimonial alliances with any Gohil or Shishodiya house of India and I am not naïve enough to not know that fundamental truth being a Rajput myself.. Nepal has however been a separate country. It is our only neighboring nation with which we exchange ambassadors and not a high commission. Karan Singhji was chosen as an envoy on a special mission on account of his relation. The visit was official and not a personal one.

OH OH!! grin!!

Sharing of knowledge, point-of-view, criticism and a little bias are all fine on RBSI...as long as it maintains the dignity of the forum and its members. As I have said earlier...its fine to disagree as long as we are not disagreeable. Thanks to Sumer Chauhan and Digvijay Singh Kushwaha for their engaging and interesting insights on this subject.

I am sure the honorable member does not mean that the Heir could not have come to Sikar (from where the Crown Princess is) but would have gone to Jaipur, had the Crown Princess been from there. Also, when Jaipur could not save its own official status, what help could it have lent to the Sovereign of Nepal. Both these statements defy all logic known to sane men.

The hugely un-popular former crown prince Paras (whose wife is from Sikar Rajasthan) was the last nail in the coffin of monarchy of Nepal. Most Nepalese and most Indians who are directly or indirectly related to Nepal refuse to believe that the ‘massacre’ can be attributable to the late crown prince Dipendra. The sole benefactor from that unfortunate ‘incident’ has obviously been a suspect. In the wake of the above, the recently deposed king never enjoyed the amazing popularity of his predecessor. Had an alliance been forged between the houses of Jaipur and Nepal there was a likelihood of few obvious outcomes: 1) Perhaps the overambitious zeal may never have got the better of the real perpetrators of that unfortunate ‘incident’ when the crown prince’s distaff side was a house as influential as Jaipur. 2) On account of being in Jaipur at the time of that unfortunate ‘incident’ maybe the future heir and sovereign of Nepal could have been saved. 3) The avarice of the princess of Jaipur would have got satiated if she was destined to be the Queen of Nepal one day and she may have relinquished the claim of her son over the throne of Jaipur. Even if that seems far fetched and she still wanted one of her sons to inherit ,the nobility of Jaipur wouldn’t have been so opposed to that as much as they were to a son born of a consanguineous alliance being ‘adopted’ as an heir apparent (which led to the late Maharaja Bhawani Singhji being removed as the president of the Rajput Sabha ,a post which was held by him hereditarily) 4) Had part one of above been true ,as per centuries old tradition, a blood nephew of the late Maharaja would have been declared an heir apparent which was something all of us were looking forward to and considered to be a foregone conclusion. 5) Had the princess of Jaipur met the unfortunate end along with her husband’s family then again a blood nephew of the late Maharaja would have been adopted as per tradition. It so appears that sometimes sane minds are unable to comprehend simple possibilities. Aside to the others who are not engaging in a duel here and wondering why the dickens is this discussion relevant at all; I want to humbly submit that a thousand year old dynasty has come to an end abruptly and howsoever modern, ‘emancipated’ we may become as a community, our clan loyalties towards our chief remain undiluted and we feel strongly about it because our centuries old relation with the dynasty stands snapped.

"The Ranas are of Shishodiya descent hence they have never had any matrimonial alliances with any Gohil or Shishodiya house of India and I am not naïve enough to not know that fundamental truth being a Rajput myself.. " Well that’s not really any insight, now is it, since I had already pointed out that the lineage of the Ranas is descended from Udaipur. For you to even bring that up is a bit ludicrous. "UP (now UK) and Punjab (now HP) hill kingdoms have had alliances with Nepal for a long time now and since all the others have had with the latter two all of us have some element of Rana blood in some measure or the other." That statement alone, after I had to clarify things for you, really doesn't make any sense, since those alliances were with the Shahi family and not the Ranas of Nepal. Now you are simply trying to grab for straws without a knowledge of the families in question or Nepal. No offence, but this is one topic where you lack any understanding. Furthermore, unless an individual belonged to a powerful family in India, the Ranas of Nepal did not go around prancing and marrying everybody. “all of us have some element of Rana blood in some measure or the other” Do you mean Ranas of Nepal? You cannot be serious. Sometimes I think you just say these things to get a rise out of me, you’re funny. If so, then nice try! Good job! "Nepal has however been a separate country." This statement depends on which era or time period you are referring to. If it is ancient India, then the answer is no, because Nepal was a part of Ancient India, an example being that Mother Sita of the Ramayana was from a kingdom in what is today Nepal. I am sure you know what the Ramayana is. If you are talking about the modern Indian state as we see it today, then yes Nepal was a separate kingdom, however, Haridwar, Rishikesh, and such areas were part of the greater kingdom of Nepal and all these regions and more were lost because of the Sagauli treaty of 1816. As Tikka-Sahib Sangram Singh has pointed out, that the present Crown Princess is from Shikar, it hardly makes any sense to assume or state that Jaipur could have done something. Not understanding the intricate web in which the Royals of India are interconnected, easily makes one assume, assume, assume……. @Yvonne: You’d be surprised my dear, you’d be surprised.

NOW you knew I'd be peeping .Endlessly fascinating ...both points of view of ancestry and the facts of a bygone era . HOW does ANY history book ever record the total reality? You two gents should have lunch some day with a detailed family tree of all these families set out to peruse .Leave the kukri knives at home ...grin!!!

I knew you would peep Yvonne!

Sita was from Mithila which is modern day northern Bihar.She was not Nepalese. Mithila has been a mahajanpad since the time of 16 ancient republics along with Vidisha, Ujjain etc. Sita is hence also known as Mithilesh. It is however wrong to mix mythology with history. There is something called nobility also that has been around since times immemorial and from which I draw my lineage. There have been exchanges of blood between royalty and their peerage throughout history and that includes Nepalese nobility as well. That is how I have relations among native Nepalese. It is a characteristic feature of all royalty to look back at time when their realm was much larger. Fortunes of all have fluctuated throughout history. In the melting pot of history no blood is really pure. It has always been a prerogative of power to first marry at will and then profess pedigree. There is no king who does not have a beggar in his ancestry and no beggar who does not have a king in his. Sumer you are not the reason that I subscribe to RBSI if you want to believe otherwise you inhabit a utopia. Yvonne: I’d love to take your suggestion but do you really think it can really be worth my while if Sumer’s sole objective is to disagree for the sake of disagreeing (earlier posts in RBSI are enough testimony to that , just scroll back and check them out ) .Sincerely it will be an utter waste of time with a person who has a condescending attitude. By the way have you guys in the west found a cure for megalomania as yet?

RBSI admires the scholarship of both these gentleman... and their rather fiesty debate was indeed revealing. Especially the many aspects of how the former royals perceive history, blood-lines etc... and a little peek into the nuances of their cultural morality was indeed educative for all of us. I would like to view this one as more of an intellectual spar... and hope for the next round to be less combative and more amicable ! Thanks. : )

Wow Digvijay, you really do have an overinflated ego and your attack directed right at me only reflects who is truly suffering from a psychiatric disorder. In case you forgot, the photo we were commenting on has a direct link to my lineage, not yours. Thus it would be expected that I would comment here. Don't worry no one follows you as you prance around in your vivid hallucinations of grandeur. If you have an opinion, so do I and both of us have a right to voice it and disagree. You really need to grow up and stop thinking you can bully people who disagree with you.

Time to move on gentleman...

I agree RBSI, I totally agree.

AGREE TO DISAGREE GENTLE MEN! YOU BOTH have great lineages and should settle for your own take on ancestry . Agree with both of you that arguing in an open forum is not likely to resolve your different perspectives .Enlightening to all of us with regard to all the histories in print .Each and every author is writing from their own bias and their own personal frame of reference ...rarely with ALL the facts that might be available to them

Now really Pouya .Historians hail from all parts of this planet

That is such a glorious portrait above . What does GCB stand for ?

GCB= Knight Grand Cross of the Order of Bath.

In reference to Mother Sita of the Ramayana (not trying to start any arguements, just want to clear this up): http://whc.unesco.org/en/tentativelists/5261/ According to Vedic literature, the present Ram Janaki Temple in Janakpur is located at the birthplace of Goddess Sita, consort of Lord Rama. As mentioned in the great epic of the Ramayana, the area belonged to the realms of King Janak. The Ram Janaki Temple is one of the most holy places for Hindus. Various vestiges of the 11th and 12th Century AD can be found. The temple architecture is of a much later period, however its style is unique; a blend of classical and neo-classical design with elements of fortification within a unique environmental setting. The present temple was built by Queen Brishabhanu of Tikramgarh of India. Janakpur also called Janakpurdham lies close to the border of Nepal and India (Bihar) at some 135 km distance from Kathmandu. Janakpur is the center of the Maithili culture and the birthplace of Sita (Vaidehi, Janaki), the daughter of king Janak and husband of Ram in the famous Ramayana story. Ram and Sita also got married in Janakpur. At the place where Sita was born stands the Ram Janaki temple which is on the tentative list to become an UNESCO world heritage site. Nepal (Asia and the Pacific) Date of Submission: 30/01/2008 Criteria: (ii)(iii)(vi) Category: Cultural Submitted by: Department of Archaeology State, Province or Region: Dhanusa District, Janakpur Zone, Central Nepal Coordinates: N26 43 49 E85 55 32 Ref.: 5261 Hmmmm.....looks like its in Nepal! Jai Desh! Jai Naresh!

In North Bihar the border between Nepal and India is a bit like the Durand line :-D