I guess not much has changed here, same old gang a bunch of throwbacks! I wonder if those are the "Hindu Khush Mountains" other words "Hindu slaughter mountains" which the present day Taliban are proud off...little do they know that they were all their ancestors butchered by the invading Arabs....history is repeating here with Osama Bin laden..

You are right Arvindji, Hindu Kush does mean "The Slaughter of Hindus" which is reminiscent of the amount of Hindus who died by either being given the option to "convert or die", or while being dragged through these mountains during the Slave trade, by Arabs, Turks and other Central Asian invaders. The benevolence shown to the Hindus was so great that if they could survive the mountain range then they were sold in the Slave Markets of the Middle East. Men, women and children all met this fate. If that was not enough, many were given the choice to convert or die. The name of the mountain range is an amazing tribute and reminder of the vicious slave trade that took place in India. Something that was not only faced by Eastern Europe, Africa, but also by India. Are there several books written about this? Yes by British, Muslim and Sikh authors. Its yet another part of India's colorful history which is brushed under the carpet.

Sumer, You said it all! For the longest time I used to think "Hindu Khush" was "Hindu Happiness" as in Hindi and in my language Konkani.

RBSI, Any books on this topic?

As you said Sumer, many people are blissfully unaware of this slave trade business! Never knew this story myself until now! India is one country where so much of the history has either been sugar coated or conveniently swept under the carpet right from ancient times to the colonial period! I wish in my lifetime I see the people of India questioning and seriously challenging their history!

Sumer, I have also heard that it was then (during the Arab invasions) that the Gypsies (some say were Rajputs) trapped in Afghanistan who fled out to Eastern Europe and into Romania and Spain. The gypsies speak Romani, which has roots in Sanskrit and Hindi. I have an old book "Zincali-An account of the Gypsies of Spain" which has show the similarities between Sanskrit, Hindi and Romani. There is also a good documentary movie "Latcho Drom" which takes you through the gypsy migration with music of the Indian gypsies all the way from eastern Europe into Spain.

While the meaning of the words "Hndu Kush" is correct, the response it has evoked as seen in the posts is twisted to the point of perversity. RBSI has put of books on the subject, one of which is on the Muhammad of Ghazni which narrates a more or less contemporary account. Even after allowing for possible prejudice of the author or his compulsions from the politics of his times,emerges the following account. 1. Sabuktagin, a Turkish slave, trained in arms became the king of Ghazni some time in the second half of the tenth century. 2. King Jaipal who ruled that time in Punjab, sensed that it was a good opportunity to raid Ghazni which was now ruled only by a slave turned king. 3. Jaipal was utterly defeated and captured at Ghazni. After a great deal of negotiation, Sabuktagin released him for a ransom of some money and elephants. Jaipal promised to send the ransom upon his return to his capital (Bhatinda?). 4. Jaipal reneged on his promise against the advise of his non-brahmin ministers and followed the advise of his brahmin Minister "to pay the ransom will be a sin greater than breaking a promise". (My interpretation: this advise was given based on Chanakyas Niti, which was some sort of text book for brahmins of that time!) 5. Sabuktagin was angered by the refuasal to keep the promise and attacked Jaipal by crossing the mountain range which a century later came to be known as Hindu Kush. Jaipal was once again defeated but Sabuktagin returned. 6. Sabuktagin died and Muhammad took charge and decided to attack Jaipal to recover the ransom. Jaipal once again went with a huge army to meet Muhammad. The two armies met in the mountain region and Jaipal's army was once again utterly routed. It is this incidence which is referred to as "Hindu Kush." 7. Jaipal was so humiliated that on his return he committed suicide after installing Anandpal, his son to the throne. 8. Anandpal too could not resist the onsaught of Muhammad of Ghazni. Thus the word Hindukush has a specific origin and has nothing to do with religious designs or acts of faith. Like "Waterloo" and "Panipat" have assumed meanings indicating defeat (rather than the other sides' victory), Hindu Kush also describes the result of a battle between two kings. It had its origins in the then prevailing normal feudal territorial, political ambitions and ethical standards and does not mean massacre or pogrom or conversions imposed by one faith on another. It is my surmise that Muhammad of Ghazni, who later raided India on several occassions and who is know to have broken idols in many temples (like Somnath) made those excursions in revenge and to make good the ransom money which was never paid. That at least must have been one of the provocations rather than his religious urge to destroy idols and convert Hindus to Islam. There are hardly any homogeneous societies anywhere in the world India being the finest example of a plural society which has survived and flourished through its checkered history. It does not behove us to incite religious passions based on hasty and pervert interpretations of history. History is a difficult subject because no body with certainty can say "this is what happened". In this context I would draw attention to the intro given by RBSI to a book linked by him to plate number 30 of 68 in one of his albums.

The title of the RBSI photo album referred at the end of my post above is: The Grand Mughals - Babur to Bahadur Shah Zafar (1526-1857) 68 photos

Shekhar, All what you say may be true and perhaps another interpretation of history. Like it or not, the fact remains that naming a mountain "Hindu Slaughter" is barbaric and insulting. I don't recall Hindus ever naming a mountain or river"Muslim slaughter". The barbarism by this archaic culture, continued into this century by the Taliban-Afghans blowing up the Bamayian Buddha even after millions of people pleaded them not to do it. Regarding giving a title "Grand" Mughals (many of them came from the same stock) is also up for a debate some other time and place.

Dear Shekhar, a very well thought out arguement and I even took a moment to read the plate you referred to. I couldn't agree more. And considering there are people in this forum who have been allowed to completely whitewash history, promote their bigoted opinions and even deny that anything horrific had happened (and since they are reading this thread they know exactly who they are), I believe your response applies not just to this thread but to other threads here on RBSI. Although your analysis of the Hindu Kush may be absolutely correct, one cannot deny the slave trade that took place in India. In terms of Sultan Ghazni, a good book to refer to is: The life and times of Sulṭān Maḥmūd of G̲h̲azna by Muhhamad Nazim. Its an excellent book and does addess many of the issues you have brought up. Mr. Nazim presents it in a candid fashion since the book was published during the British Raj. No one is inciting relgious passions. Dear Shekhar please refer to my posts on the thread about Benares to get an idea where I am coming from.

@Sumer Chauhan: Please see my comment on slavery in response to a post by Julian Craig on another thread.

@Arvind Mallya: I think it is not correct to link the name of the mountain range containing the Khyber pass "Hindu Kush" with the destruction of Bamiyan Buddha. The latter is an act condemnable by one and all. As far as Hindu Kush is concerned, I will request you to visit the disambiguation page on wikipedia which gives more probable reasons why that mountain range is called Hindu Kush. Kush also means hashis. It could also be an apabhramsha (distortion through usage) of the word "koh" meaning mountain. Mohen-jo-daro means mound of the dead. In our modern day Poona (ou Pune if one insists), there is a temple called "Khunya Murlidhar". Literally translated it means "Murderous Krishna". The name is given by the predominantly Hindu local population of Pune and accepted by all. The names of people and places stick because of acceptance by generations of people. Where one finds the same intolerable or to score some brownie political points, names of places are changes: Mumbai for Bombay, Kolkata for Calcuuta etc. One can of course debate whether to call Mughals grand or not. I would also like to observe here that the Hindu used to denote religion is of relatively recent origin. To our distant ancestors, it first meant people living in the Indus region. None of our ancient scripts use a word like Hindu or Hindutwa (Hinduism) to describe our religion. These terms got coined because of comparative studies of different religions of the world. What I stated in my earlier post regarding Sabuktagin and Jaipal is not interpretation of history. That is a record of fact and my interpretation I have stated in paranthesis. I will not pass value judgments on what Jaipal did in attacking Ghazni and breaking the promise of ransom in exchange for life or what Muhammad did in breaking idols.

Shekhar, Your statement "Bamiyan Buddha act condemnable by all"...needs some revisit as you seem to sugar coat the events. I don't recall Mullahs (in India or otherwise) or a worldwide Muslim organization and the billion or Muslims taking to the street and condemning the act. Linking these events in your view may not be correct and I give you that, that is your right. However it is history repeating with such acts of religious intolerance by a fanatic bunch which needs to be understood and many of us see the similarities and are prepared for such despicable acts in the future. Regarding "Murderous Krishna" this is NOT the first I have heard of such animistic traditions, where many of the Vedantic roots of the Sanatana Dharma have been diluted in the so called "Hindu Traditions". Again not surprising that many so called "Hindus" don't even know how many chapters are there in the Bhagavad Gita. Interesting you seem to link these with "Hindu Khush" to give credence to their historical injustices.

@Arvind Mallya: It seems you have a grudge against the entire Muslim population. I am sure you will have a grudge against the entire Christian population and then also the Hindu Population. I don't recall anybody taking out protest marches by the millions on any issue in the world. You are right in hating a bunch but wrong in condemning the crop.

Shekhar, You seem to know more about me (and my grudges) then I do! I'm not talking of a million men march to save Bamiyan Buddha, but a few out of the billion, we never see that. Likewise, Mullahs who never spoke and the same ones who cry foul every time there is issue impacting their faith. I will leave the discussion at that....

I don't believe Arvind has a grudge against any entire population. In fact his exchanges with myself and others about the beauty and strength of India's multiculturalism has always been positive. I believe Shekhar's concern was genuine and noble, however, Arvind did not make an attack on an entire community, only a group that at one time did in fact commit atrocities. Arvind is a voice we need to bring to light many of the events that have been systematically brushed aside in India's history. We all tend to get ourselves into hot water when we call a spade a spade. The fact that India's history is a very sensitive topic is clearly demonstrated by the clear basis that anything anyone states, one feels that they are walking on eggshells. On the other hand, there are a lot of people who have whitewashed India's history on other threads (in this forum), and that seems to be the fashion. The go unchecked and sadly have presented very poorly thought-out hypotheses and yet go on and on misguiding other readers about the realities of India's sensitive past. To end my two cents on this thread (which I feel showed passion from all sides, which is a great thing), I would like to add Richard Zimler's words, the author of "Guardian of the Dawn", a book which documents the little-known Portuguese Inquisition in 16th century Goa. Richard Zimler said in an interview, referring to India's sensitive history: "It is important to open old wounds". We need to analyze our past thoroughly in order to have a brighter future.

@Sumer Chauhan: Sparring is inevitable in a debate on history. On responds to what is discussed in a given thread and it is difficult to cross-reference discussions on FB. Nevertheless, I have no objection to opening wounds where they exist. Even when wounds exist, opening them should not lead to a call of inflicting new wounds. Hindu Kush is no different than a Waterloo or Panipat. In feudal times, people fought for their narrow feudal purposes. Wherever you feel a point of view needs to be criticised, please do so with passion based on principles and objectivity, not with false pride based on ghastly ghosts of history. One cannot demand revenge for a perceived wrong on another people from another time. I do value comments which open my eyes and mind.

Dear Shekhar, what you said is so true. Sparring is inevitable. It is people like you, Arvind, Gouri, Sumedha and many others who make RBSI so worthwhile.

Sumer, Thanks for you comments and support. A healthy debate is always welcome as it is the way of a free society. However the debater soon loses face and credibility, when they attack is personal without knowing the persons background. I urge all FB members to refrain from such tirades and keep the discussion to the point. Sumer you also brought about another discussion on history "Goa Inquisition" which is near and dear to our Konkani Saraswat community, which was at the brunt of the forced conversion in the 1500s by Portuguese and their missionaries; the Jesuits, Franciscans and Dominicans, headed by none other than St Francis Xavier. Our benevolent (Hindu Saraswat) religious leaders told us not to bring up this topic (of forced conversions) as it only hurts us twice, as the converts today in Goa are our own brethren. There is a good book "Goa a Daughters Story by Maria Cuto" she is our own catholic sister who has come to terms with her ancestral roots and has described what transpired in Goa in much detail and worth the read. History is repeating once again for our own Kashmiri Saraswat brethren (we are from the same stock) in Kashmir with ethnic cleansing all in the name of religion. Some members here on FB would like to call it political, just like in Goa with the Portuguese rulers giving a free hand to the missionaries! RBSI,Thank you for giving us the space for these trying discussions, if you know of good old books (in English) on old Goa and the inquisition it will be much appreciated.

We should if we could travel back in time to unwind or prevent some of the events that are unpleasant for us today. Even if we could, I doubt we as individuals could have done anything to alter the course of history. That is not to say that we as individuals are powerless but to say just that the social and political forces in history are much more powerful. To make a change possible, even in our own present times, one has to wait for a Tehrir Square to happen. What after Mubarak, is something nobody can predict. At every turn of a historical turmoil, narrow parochial identities yield to new identities.

We are as powerless today as we were then !

Thanks for the most enraging , barbaric, and tragic incidents associated with "Hindu Khush"

RBSI, We are no doubt powerless as individuals but collectively we can make a difference both positive and negative. It is the collective human knowledge which has propelled us this far. Knowing history is in a way preparing for the future.

History of Hindu Kush and Punjab shows that two major kingdoms of Gandhaar & Vaahic Pradesh (Balkh of Bactria) had their borders extending far beyond the Hindu Kush. Legend has it that the kingdom of Gandhaar was established by Taksha, grandson of Bharat of Ayodhya . Gandhaar’s borders extended from Takshashila to Tashkent (corruption of ‘Taksha Khand’) in the present day Uzbekistan. In the later period, Mahabharat relates Gaandhaari as a princess of Gandhaar and her brother, Shakuni as a prince and later as Gandhaar’s ruler.

1.The Greek chroniclers of Alexander the Great called Hindu Kush as Parapamisos or Paropanisos . The Hindu name of the Hindu Kush mountains was ‘Paariyaatra Parvat’. 2.Persian-English dictionary indicates that the word ‘Kush’ is derived from the verb Kushtar – to slaughter or carnage. Kush is probably also related to the verb Koshtan meaning to kill. 3.In Urdu, the word Khud-kushi means act of killing oneself (khud – self, Kushi- act of killing). 4.Encyclopedia Americana comments on the Hindu Kush as follows: The name Hindu Kush means literally ‘Kills the Hindu’, a reminder of the days when (Hindu) SLAVES from Indian subcontinent died in harsh Afgan mountains while being transported to Moslem courts of Central Asia. 5.The National Geographic Article ‘West of Khyber Pass’ informs that ‘Generations of raiders brought captive Hindus past these peaks of perpetual snow. Such bitter journeys gave the range its name Hindu Kush – “Killer of Hindus”‘ 6.The World Book Encyclopedia informs that the name Kush means Death. 7.While Encyclopedia Britannica says ‘The name Hindu Kush first appears in 1333 AD in the writings of Ibn Battutah, the medieval Berber traveller, who said the name meant ‘Hindu Killer’, a meaning still given by Afghan mountain dwellers who are traditional enemies of Indian plainsmen. However, later the Encyclopedia Britannica gives a negationist twist by adding that ‘more likely the name is a corruption of Hindu-Koh meaning Hindu mountains’. This is unlikely, since the term Koh is used in its proper, uncorrupted form for the western portion of Hindu Kush, viz. Koh-i-Baba, for the region Swat Kohistan, and in the names of the three peaks of this range, viz. Koh-i-Langer, Koh-i-Bandakor, and Koh-i-Mondi. Thus to say that corruption of term Koh to Kush occurred only in case of Hindu Kush is merely an effort to fit in a deviant observation to a theory already proposed. In science, a theory is rejected if it does not agree with the observations, and not the other way around. Hence the latter negationist statement in the Encyclopedia Britannica must be rejected IMHO.