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Okay, I will be the one to throw out a question that I hope someone can explain to me and not give me a silly answer (please, I have heard them all by now). Not that I have a problem with nudity or art and the human form. However, I have heard several explanations as to why the ladies are topless and how it was viewed back then and how it has all changed now etc etc. I have also heard theories that it was Semitic religions that changed Indian perspectives. So I would really appreciate it to hear some new voices (luckily I can see I am in the company of some very knowledgeable people) and shed some light on this matter. Can someone answer why the ladies are topless? (Not that its a bad thing.)

Haha. If you look at another post on another RBSI thread, Chanakya too is portrayed topless!! But damn good question I too would like to know why. One explanation could be that topless women are a result of a strong elite class in the society. An elite class who has the leisure, money and the means. It iss fashionable to say beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder. Truth is that beauty is perceived in any non-monotonous shapes of curves, grace, symmetry and movement Poor people have no time for aesthetics. They are busy maintaining the elite. Another prerequisite for topless women as objects d' art is the patriarchal socil organisation. In matriarchal societies, even the deities were shapeless.

Yes, okay, I have read Gita-Govinda and there is definitely a lot of sexuality not just in what you have mentioned, but in a lot of Hindu literature. And I have heard this theory before, that nudity was not taboo, because its there in black and white for anyone to read (funny thing is that there is a lot of sexuality and explicit stuff in the Bible too and for that matter in the Torah as well). 1.Okay, so why did it stop after the Mughal invasion? 2.Why do extreme right-wing Hindu groups have a problem and what exactly do they have a problem with? 3. And before this thread goes in one direction, is there anyone else with a different explanation? :0 BTW @Shekar: I saw you laughing at my first question! :))) But I had to ask.

I am aghast that a discussion on the Jatakas should descend into such alleys. The Jatakas belong to world literature. There are many parallels with the Aesop’s fables, Bible stories, Talmudic lore and even Sumero-Akkadian literature. Herodotus refers to Aesop but whether he was a real person is disputed. The fables are also traced to another mysterious author Babirus whose name echoes Baveru and Babil-Kapil. I have also pointed to the existence of Seleucus and Chandragupta (King Aruna) in another jataka. The name Pavurlakonda is linked to Baveru. In my opinion the Bhuridatta Jataka refers to the Gomata-Zoroaster (Gotama-Devadatta) clash. Prof Guitty Azarpay of UC Berkeley has reported a Jataka Tale depicted on a Sasanian Silver Plate, (Bulletin of the Asia Institute 9, 1997, pp. 99-125). I had some discussions with her regarding the dating of Kuh-I Khwaja in 2000 and she asked me to contact Mary Boyce who is now no more. More importantly I am more than convinced that a close study of the Jatakas shall throw light on early Christianity.

Dear Mr. Pal, we are not discussing the fact that the Jatakas belong to world literature or not. I asked a simple question, because honestly, when someone asks me, I really don't know what is the real reason for the nudity. On one hand we have Indian society with its taboos, we have a long history of protecting one's honor and even choosing death to protect it. We have taboos on public displays of affection and many other things. So when faced with this beautiful art, one only wonders, why the nudity?. Now sadly I wasn't able to become an Art major or study the intricate meanings of Art as much as I would have wished. And being in the company of people who I have seen possess the knowledge to answer some very hard and often complex issues in Indian history, and that too from an Indian perspective, then this would be the best place to bring up such a topic with the hopes that someone can give me an answer. And that is what I am hoping someone will address. So no need to get upset, its an honest question and many people have asked me this, so now I am asking everyone here.

I think Shekhar Sathe has partly answered the question.

@Sumer Chauhan: I laughed with delight and not derision because of the question. One is entitle and free to ask a question that comes to mind, evoked by a particular presentation on a forum offered by RBSI. Aren't we all sophists and clutch at vague clues, hints to take us in wild directions?? Take for example Babiru. Dr. Pal seems to suggest he was Kapil muni. Reason? Kapil - Babil - Babirus! (I will add to that Babirus = Babi + Rus = Babi + Rishi = Kapil Muni who came from Rus - Russia. So if Jataka tales raise questions about Shringar rasa, why not? I will now keep quiet in this matter for some time as Sumer said, the discussion should not go in one direction. I think that is a very good rule to follow on RBSI threads.

Thank you for understanding Mr. Pal. There was sincerely no offence intended.

@ Sumer Chauhan Please read what Sir John Boardman and many other learned commentators have written about nudity in Greek art. This was also the Hindu and the Sumerian Art traditions. All raiments are man-made and hence impure at the highest level. Can you visualize Eve in a sari?

Thank you for the reference Mr. Pal, I will look it up. I think if Eve wore a Sari, it would have been after she bit the apple and committed her first sin. :)

Or Menaka in a skirt?

E B Cowell's translation is considered as one of the best for Jataka stories. If anyone is interested in buying text for, they can do from here http://www.lppindia.com/servlet/lppgetbiblio?bno=000106

I have some fond remembrances of another great scholar N.G.L. Hammond who discovered Vergina, the ancestral abode of Alexander the Great and was a co-editor of the Cambridge Ancient History with Sir John Boardman. He died at the age of 93 and wrote three letters to me. The last one was written only three weeks before his death. The purely Hellenistic works of northwest India and Afghanistan were previously dated to the 1st century B.C. But the induction of Diodotus-I (Asoka) within the fold of Gandhara art dramatically changes art history. Sir John Boardman now writes that they belong to the time of the Indo-Greeks in the 2nd-1st century BC. An earlier date is also indicated by M. Busagli and T. McEvilley.

Ladies were topless until the invasion of Muslims. Till then, women were not harassed or humiliated. Sex was sacred and it was one of the 64 arts. For those who wanted to satisfy their body desire, there were separate streets, 'Vatikas' in each city. Prostitues had an honoured place as they were experts in 'Kama Sutra' and arts (music and dance). Nudity was not taboo. Even classical texts dedicated an exclusive chapter for narration of sex (Kama Sutra aspects). 'Kama', desire, is the source of creation and creation itself is sacred. Looked from this angle, sex was not vulgar but sacred. Lord Shiva narrated 'Kama Sutra' to Parvathi and the 'philosophy of sex' or the spiritual aspect of sex came from Shiva himself!

I can only describe the destruction of Nalanda as an wanton act of savagery but I also condemn the casteism of Dahir Sen which divided the society.

The fact that Jataka stories are found in the Bible and other Jewish texts shows the close links of the Jews with India. In a recent paper published in Mithras Reader III, I have maintained that the Yadus were the forefathers of Yahdus or Jews. This was also foreseen by D. P. Mishra (father of Brajesh Mishra) who was not only a close confidant of Indira Gandhi but also a notable writer on history.

To respond to Sumer's query, the dressing had upto a point always been topless for women, except for using the sari to cover the upper bit. It is said that the concept of a blouse was an English influence and the literates and the England-returned Indians found it not just fashionable, but also decent to wear it. That's probably how the Indian women stopped being topless in the past. Considered to be the first step to being 'civilised', even if it was aping the West. However, poverty is definitely not a reason for not wearing anything on top. My view.

I do not have words to thank the RBSI for this wonderful opportunity to download a precious book. I have the Print edition from Munshiram Manoharlal but this has an overview by E.J. Thomas, an excellent scholar.

Amazing! Everyone has given me a perspective and has opened up a lot of questions for me. About Jataka tales, I have grown up reading some of them, its way to vast for me to claim that I have read all or a lot, but many of them, yes I have read. I found them fascinating and magical with deeper meanings as I would read them over and over again through the years (the ones I have of course, like the Elephant tales). All of you are so wonderful, some of the stuff I know a bit about but getting new perspectives and seeing things from another angle only enriches knowledge. It helps expand my mind and that of others who may be reading. So here are my questions: @Sushil: There tends to be a lot denial that such events ever occurred even among members in RBSI. How do we know for sure that such events took place on such a huge scale that it would change the entire attitude of a civilization? Some have even said that there was no clash on such a scale and that it is only recent Wahhabism that is to blame for any problems. They say that there was no force, no persecution, no destruction and no death at the scale of what is being claimed. What is the truth? I would also like to know about the Cow Slaughter during the Yagna, that you mention, since Hindu extremists like Shiv Sena and others would have my head on a platter for asking such a question. That is really an eye-opener. I have heard about this before, but no one gave me any evidence. Please enlighten me :) @Gouri: Yes, I have read and heard this before that Sex and the Human form were sacred in Ancient India to the point that even Temples were designed based on the human body. (I have even read that the Shivalingam is not a penis but in fact represents the Pineal Gland, and coming from a medical background and how the Shivlingam is situated in a temple, it makes perfect sense). However, you give such amazing detail that I am often left in awe. I had no idea that prostitutes were respected. Did this "invasion" really make such a grave impact on India? Why were not harassed or humiliated before this? @Mr. Pal: Who is Dahir Sen? And why did he destroy Nalanda? Did he destroy Nalanda or did someone else? About the Jewish connection, very strange, this is the second time I am hearing about it. The first time I heard about it was last year when I was having coffee with Dr. K. O'Connell at the University, her and her husband know the author of that paper and she told me about the theory. My honest reaction was "Really?". Although I can see connections even in the fact that the Star of David (Magen David) is the Shat-Kona of Hinduism, or the fact that Noah could easily have been Manu and there are so many other connections. Still I am going to be cautious until more evidence comes out before I make my thoughts more concrete. @Utarkash: Not sure if I could buy that one, but its an interesting twist. The reason I say that is because the blouse is more revealing than what I have seen Indian women wear in the past, where they used to have longsleeve bouses with their sarees. Also, back in those days, many Indians believed that crossing the "7 Samundar" would mean loss of caste, so many did not leave India. Is there any source or book that you could guide me to that might give me this other perspective? I am truly indebted to all of you for sharing your knowledge.

Dahir Sen was the ruler of Sindh during the Arab invasion. The Arab army was led by a teeager and they were strtegically superior. In my website www.ranajitpal.com I have written about the link of the Amorites with the Indus civilization and with Vedic culture. Ezekiel says to the Jews 'Thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother a Hittite."

In my scheme the Mauryas were Amorites (Amori).

Maybe its time to move on....looks like we've hit a 'hindu gridlock' !

Dear Sushil, I am running out the door, but no it was not a cruel joke. I am glad you answered and I agree with RBSI that we should move on.

@RBSI: For the record, I didn't start the passionate debate, I only asked about the Nudes and look where that got us....:)

@Mr Sushil Kumar, in you post you said - "They created many myths like Indian civilization was oldest and Sanskrit is world's oldest language and every thing that is good originated in India" Would you like to defend your stand on this, also that Cows were slaughtered for Yajnas...I'm all ears.

Also @ Mr Sushil Kumar, you said - "if there was no Khalsa Panth, not even a single Hindu will remain in this earth in Aurengzeb period" So exactly how many Hindus were saved by this Panth outside of Panjab ?I'm sure Punjab is not equal to the Earth. :)

Very interesting discussion indeed! Loved the comments! @ Sushil - your comments are very candid and very true too! Loved them! @Uthkarsh - I agree with you that blouse was an English influence. Except the chief women of the royalty, like the queen, who wore metal bras ('Kanchuka Dharini'), rest of the women went without blouse. Covering the upper portion with the small end of the saree was also a later practice.

Hi Sumer, If you can lay your hands on any book which talks of the Bengal Renaissance, you might find a mention of this. There is no direct evidence of such influences, but the long blouse (often with frills) was definitely an english import, popularised by the Brahmo Samajis in the elite Bengali culture. The mention of crossing the seven seas as a taboo was much before, the routes opened up and we had the Indians returning from England with their Bar-at-Law status.

Sex Nudity and Meat Eating in Ancient India This thread is discussing highly value laden and emotional issues for Hindus who project a good deal of the symbolism of purity on these issues. Hindu society and theology have explored and codified the sexual aspect of human nature with the most seriousness and perseverance. The Kamasutra, of course, is an obvious example where the treatise has been written to channelize sexual energy for maximum pleasure. However, Classical Sanskrit literature is full of shringar rasa and lyrical descriptions of the female form. Wearing a piece of cloth which covered only the lower half of the body, the Antariya, was common both for men and women, weather and cultural practices made it so. The Uttariya, the garment for the upper part of the body, was used as necessity or ceremony dictated. Sumer Chauhan, it is only from the standpoint of ‘NOW’ when you see all covering garments as the norm that you wonder about the ‘toplessness’ of the ancients. You may have to show some mental agility/gymnastics to consider that as normal! As far as paintings go, as the Greeks spent most of their energy idealizing the nude young male body as the highest form of beauty ;so, in some senses, was the position of the nude female body in Ancient India. It was the ideal of beauty in poetry, prose, art and sculpture. Kalidasa, for instance, on the different aspects of the beauty of female breasts is amazing. (Keep in mind the fact, of course, that this is the male gaze and the male voice and it does tend to be a bit fixated!!) History text books describe the meat eating ways of the early Vedic peoples in detail. Sacrificing of animals and the eating of the consecrated meat was a ritual practice. There are said to be mentions of this in the Vedas but since I have not read all of them in the original I can only rely on commentaries and descriptions. There are people in RBSI who are well read in the originals, maybe they can throw more light on it. Chanakya, of course, describes the ways of preparing meat and how it should be consumed but has not mentioned beef as such. As far as the position of courtesans is concerned they are as far removed from the common modern conception as possible. They were cultured, educated, beautiful women who occupied an honored place in society. Not only the arts and culture but politics was also the domain of the leaders amongst them. The protagonist of my book on the Mauryans is a courtesan, very much part of the political and administrative system of the Mauryans . The Arthashastra describes courtesans and the conduct of their business in great detail. They even ran State funded academies for the training of courtesans as they were a revenue earning asset of the Mauryan State ( which had money, land and assets always on the mind). In case a courtesan wished to change her mode of life and enter grihasta ashrama by getting married all she had to do was purchase her freedom from the state. thereafter she was a respected society ‘matron’ The rates at which the different categories of courtesans could do this is given in the Arthashatra. To give you an idea of the courtesan in the Mauryan period I am appending the description of the heroine of my book who is being consdered for recruitment into the Mauryan Spy Department. The description below is sourced from the Arthashastra as well as Jain and Buddhist literature. At the time the Ujjain Academy for the training of courtesans occupied a premier place and Princesses were also sent there for education. ‘Her credentials were impressive. She was not an ordinary veshya, a courtesan; but a ganika, a courtesan deluxe, a class apart. As a ganika she was the most talented, beautiful and virtuous of her compatriots in the Ujjaini Training Academy. She was skilled in all the sixty four arts with dance, music, painting, poetry and languages being her specialties. Her formal education was as good as his, with the Triveda, Vedanga, Anvishaki and Danda Niti all being taught to her apart from the art of writing. Her mental and physical development had been taken to an extra ordinary level; she should be useful to his department.’

Thank you, Sushil Kumar! And Gouri Satya! Will keep you posted on the appearance of my book!

With reference to the other strand of the Jataka Stories; important elements in these have been traced to the Bada Kaha of Gunadhya, now lost. Only the re written versions by Somadeva and Kshemendra survive. ( Researching my next book around these stories!!)

Has it indeed? I have the Sanskrit and the English translation but not the Hindi. Will check it out.

Thanks fr the inputs Sushil Kumar. I actually want to concentrate on the original first so that I can make up my own mind about the stories. Reading other people's interpretations will come later, if at all.

@Sumedha - Liked your frank input Sumedha on sex and nudity. Sex was symbolised and worshipped in all civilisations. After all, it was a process of creation and evolution. Rig Veda has many Mantras about it! Nudity and sex was not shameful, but sacred. We worship it in the form of 'Linga', who is Ishwara.

Gouri Satya Glad to have found you! Good to interact with like minded people who study these issues seriously and want to learn from the insights our ancestors had, which we seem to have lost somewhere in the modern world. Although there is no dearth of exploitative, commercial and prurient sex and nudity, unfortunately. With reference to the Linga I was part of another discussion on RBSI where a young man had absolutely no understanding of linga worship and could exhibit only ignorance and disgust!! Tried quite hard to give him some useful inputs but I do not know how far I succeeded!

Sumedha Verma : I am surprised when intelligent people are apalled at metaphor behind the Linga concept. All I can say is....if an alien was asked to observe the human form and tell us which part of the body had that incredible power to create life and perpetuate the existence of the human race....would the answer continue to shock us ?? The ancients seem to have understood this fact quite intuitively and accorded it with the symbol of Godhead.

:) Very true RBSI. But you know who I mean! You were very much a part of the thread.

@Sumedha - Thanks! Yes, you are very true. Without understanding the significance behind many of our traditions and practices, they are either criticised and condemned out of sheer ignorance or misused. Perhaps the most misued is "Tantric Sex", in the name of Tantra! It is disgusting indeed and wonder how people fall a prey to such gimmicks, more so abroad. I have made an indepth study into sex and nudity. Hence, my comments.